Re: Musing about critiques

While some other turners have tried to buy my stuff, I never sold a piece to them. I have swapped for some things that have found their way into darker storage areas of my house, and even the garage. I have some of their pieces on display, and have gifted others to relatives. I assume my pieces have suffered a similar fate once the fascination has worn off, though it hasn't stopped me from turning.

I like the idea of a compare, not a critique. Everyone make and post your favorite egg, since Easter is coming, next a board turning, a vase, etc. That way we're really swapping ideas the way we swap work for work at shows. The only one qualified to critique my work has slept next to me these thirty eight years, the rest pay cash....

> Fortunately we aspirant artist-turners have free access to the ultimate > forum for critique/criticism; the general public. Over a period of time > they will keep us well informed. With VBG's and firm TIC, Arch > > Fortiter, > >
Reply to
George
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Arch, I was reading a critique on another forum, and the turner was given a difficult time about the piece he had posted. I noticed that the piece was already sold. The best master at critiquing a piece is always the customer or spouse in my book. Nashville, Georgia

Reply to
Ghodges2

As opposed to the 'tunnel' effect of not seeing 'another way' of doing things from a good critique.

dislikes of a piece...

A good and useful critique will be clarity of vision and offering suggestions for a new direction even if the criticizer doesn't particularly like it. A good critiquer will set aside their likes and dislikes, as much as is humanly possible, for the benefit of the artist. It happens every day in art and design schools around the world.

Why draw out the process over a long period of time from lesser qualified critiques the general public provides? Isn't there benefit from getting a focussed, well-informed critique and saving you months of work not to mention a few trees? Dan

Reply to
Dan Bollinger

That's sad, Ray. Where did I challenge anyone about anything in the Online Critique thread? Why must you throw around flame bait? I simply and sincerely asked questions on a serious subject and you twist it into your own perceived "challenge". There were no "others" that began the thread. Only me and those few who have responded so far (which includes you, btw). Direct your venom only to me please. Those responders don't need it. I don't either but I'm willing to accept it as a cost of posting in an large, open forum and, hopefully, getting answers to some of my questions. Who knows, it might start a serious debate and evolve as many posts do into something useful.

Nowhere (especially in the Online Critique thread) have I even come close to suggesting that I am of the ability to "conduct a proper critique", whatever that means to you. I do feel that I have the right to my own opinions and ability to express them (quit rolling your eyes everybody!) as I feel everyone has that right. My opinions are my own and are derived from my own experiences and study. I do not have the level of study and learning as an art historian, gallery owner, nor of an accomplished woodturner (which could be all the same in some people) but I do feel my opinions count as such they are. I feel this about anyone's opinions and critiques. There ARE those that believe that only proper training and education give them the "right" to critique others' work but I am not one of them. I DO give their training and education the credit it deserves but I also don't give it more than my own instincts (and certainly pride ) demands. To suggest that, with my original post of questions in the Online Critique, I think of myself as superior to others in ability to critique is ... again .... sad.

Just because someone posts questions about a topic doesn't necessarily mean that they are challenging you or presenting themselves as a superior in some aspects to you. It was nice that you posted an item of yours to ABPW for critique but don't presume to suggest that it was at my request either implicit or implied.

Apparently you have strong feelings about woodturning critique. I sincerely hope that you can direct those feelings in a positive manner and offer suggestions, pitfalls, strategies, and helpful ideas to the Online Critiques thread.

- Andrew

Reply to
AHilton

Arch, as always that was an excellent post, ummm I mean musing. : ) I must agree with you on everything and with the turners who responded.

I don't know how many of you have ever had the opportunity to hear Frank Sudol talk, but he disapproves of critiques and critiquers. A few years ago at the AAW Symposium in RI, he gave a speech about the foolishness of asking someone to critique our work which is actually an expression of our opinion.

Yes, there are turners (and professionals in every other trade) who have a good eye for design and are happy to share their expertise. HOWEVER, just because they do not like a design, does not mean it's not "art" or desirable. It just means they do not like the design, that's all.

I think it all boils down to most people want approval of their work; we're all little kids inside loving when someone says "Oh, that's beautiful........ you stayed inside the lines"! It makes me feel good. : )

Thanks for a good post. Ruth

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Reply to
Ruth

Arch

I always enjoyed your observations and ramblings - this is meant in a most respectfully way. In my view many don't question enough but your postings are always stimulating to the mind. On this occasion I must disagree with the general drift of your 'rambling'. Firstly to my mind a critique should be viewed as what it is, a opinion by another individual, purely subjective, rather than "by someone who has successfully played the game",. The beauty of turning to my mind , or any other creative discipline for that matter, is that there is no right or wrong. If you believe in the work that you are producing you should surely take on board the comments made and alter your views accordingly to your own beliefs and not those of another if you don't agree. You refer to the "ultimate forum for critique/criticism; the general public" and "Over a period of time they will keep us well informed." In my country, the UK, the general public are ignorant of the field of woodturning. To them a woodturner is one who produces salad/fruits bowls, stair spindles and functional items. They are not really aware of the diversity within turning. If I followed your train of thought right, there would be no development from this view.Turners wouldn't experiment, develop new ideas and then try to stimulate the general public. You are fortunate in the States in that this view has been altered for a limited few by the likes of David Ellesworth, Stoney Lamar etc. Here we are about 20 years behind! You mention "feelings of guilt and failure" which seems a trait among many makers and crafts people I know and which I find hard to understand. I'm a member of a group of 70 makers of all disciplines where we have monthly reviews to maintain standards. Many appear to view a critique as a criticism and feel that sense of failure if it isn't favourable. I actually value any comments made about my work, whatever they might be, because it makes me question what I'm doing and why. Because many of us work in isolation you can become blinkered. Any outside response should be valued. I hope you take this with the good intent with which it is made.

Mark Hancock South Wales, UK

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Reply to
Mark Hancock

Andrew

I am not truying to throw flame bait, just taking the other thread to its conclusion was to post a shot or so to see how people would conduct a critique - I have only received the normal "nice work" replies. My comments about opinions are quite frequently echoed by lots of folks. I think the idea of conducting critiques is a good idea, if done properly.

The story I related was not supposed to be a sad story - it was on filled with irony. The man I describes as having long beard, long hair and #1 is someone that almost all turners know. My story was told to illustrate the critique vs opinion dynamics that exist.

You did not challenge anyone to post a picture for people to critique, I did that after reading the entire thread and jumping to the obvious conclusion - we need a guinnea pig to see if this can work. Additionally, I am quite geared toward friendly banter and often a bit acidic in my comments in the hope that it will spark additional comment and discussion. I like to cut down to the brass tacks, then pull them out!

I want everyone to drop their sheilds and let the truth fly once in a while! We should all look at the posts on this forum as a means to interact with like minded folks, learn from each other and occasionally have some fun! Can't we all get along?

Here's to surfing on a Saturday night with the Grand Ol Opry playing on the radio!

Ray

Reply to
Ray Sandusky

Mark

"Blinkered" I think that is me - definitely!

I have been asked by many of my local friends to take a look at their work an offer any advice. I would rather give advice than opinions - that way I do not have to follow it and never have to tell some folks what I really think.

Ray

'rambling'.

Reply to
Ray Sandusky

What a great ng. I count a thread successful that engenders responses like yours. Thanks to each of you.

Lobby. 'velvet art' depends on which way you brush it and on which street corner it's sold on.

George, I don't know about posting eggs on RCW, but I have sure laid a few.

Glenn, I 'm unsure about spouses, but my driving speed was once severely critiqued by a cop who followed me from Norman Park almost to Nashville.

Dan, Thanks for your cordial critique of my critique of critiques.

Ray, wallet approval can be the best critique of all.

Andrew, my post wasn't intended to put down the thoughtful suggestions you made in another thread. My timing does suggest that. Please forgive.

Ruth, I can stay between the lines and I bask in the praise I get. It's connecting those d... dots that's so hard for me to do.

Mark, Not only do I think your intent is good, but also your remarks are cogent. That you took the time is much appreciated. My poor musings more often than not resemble a cameleon. Read them with a salt shaker nearby.

Fair curves and 3:1 ratios to all, Arch

Fortiter,

Reply to
Arch

Ray

"never have to tell some folks what I really think" - I think that's a shame because who benefits?

"I would rather give advice than opinions - that way I do not have to follow it" - How can you give advice if you don't believe it?

As I said before a critique is just an opinion and everybody's is different. Your story of the bearded chap illustrates this. It should be constructive and not destructive and it is then of value.

Reply to
Mark Hancock

Ray, I think you are mixing critique with acceptance and even sales. They are quite distinct. You asked the man with the gray beard for a critique and you got one. It must have been good, it encouraged you to try new things. He never said the piece wasn't any good and he never said he wouldn't buy it or add it to a museum collection if given the chance. Just because he had a suggestion to make doesn't mean that the piece had no value. That was something you decided.

One thing I've noticed about myself, and this may be true of your critiquer, is that I tend to be more critical of work as it gets better. I'm not sure why and its probably a fault of mine. Perhaps if I see a piece that was almost perfect I want that last smidgeon of quality. Maybe he works the same way?

Here's the deal. EVERYONE criticises other peoples work. EVERYONE judges the value of a turned piece. EVERYONE sees flaws. SOME will say this outloud. Even FEWER will say it to you. Lucky YOU if they do. Dan

Reply to
Dan Bollinger

Ruth, I think what you said is quite true as far as you go. There is a difference between an opinion and a critique. You can hear it in the questions. "Do you like this piece?" versus "How can I improve on this?" If someone is still looking for approval, the second question may not be a good idea. Dan

Reply to
Dan Bollinger

Not that you couldn't have predicted the result, eh, Arch? The "In's " versus the "outs" all over.

Dan Bollinger:

"Why draw out the process over a long period of time from lesser qualified critiques the general public provides? Isn't there benefit from getting a focused, well-informed critique and saving you months of work not to mention a few trees?" Dan

Of course there are those wonderful juries of painters and papermakers whose opinions we have to endure to sell our stuff, who are qualified because they're "artists."

Ray Sandusky:

"Critique to me is something akin to opinion. And you know about those...everyone has one and they all stink..."

He must have had the same MTI I did. No wonder that all cultures have the equivalent of "different strokes..." or "de gustibus...." Expert opinion is an oxymoron. Those who feel their opinion is worth more (not their observation of crushed grain incompletely sanded on your posted pot) because they're an expert are, well - not oxy.

Predictable Andy: "That's sad, Ray. Where did I challenge anyone about anything in the Online Critique thread? Why must you throw around flame bait? "

Anyone see this response as a precursor? Forest products Labs is really wrong about bluestain being a fungus.

Ruth:

I think it all boils down to most people want approval of their work; we're all little kids inside loving when someone says "Oh, that's beautiful........ you stayed inside the lines"! It makes me feel good. : )

Squarely on the head. You must be a grandma. But that's why the pay-to-play forums like the one at WC are pretty much pap. Things like "use of quartersawn wood for spindles will reduce ovalling" pass without a comment, lest someone's feelings get ruffled.

BTW, I get to be a grandpa finally August/September time frame. What bothers me is when we tell people that, they ask "who?" "The one kid who's married, of course."

Nick Silva:

Online critiques on woodturning forums are generally from other (friendly) hobbyists, not professional reviewers and not from regular humans. They all seem to take the form of a pat on the back, a 'good job' or a ataboy. Why? Because we all want to encourage other turnerss AND BECAUSE if someone honestly came out and said, "I think it looks like crap", the community would come down on the person so hard no one would ever say a bad thing again.

Except me, of course. Or maybe Arch....

Reply to
George

Mark

The comments were more tongue in cheek than true -

Like I said in another message - we all have to lighten up a bit!

Ray

Reply to
Ray Sandusky

Dan

I knew it was critique but the expression on his face as he said "I would have cut the foot..." told me he was adding his personal artiste opinion and that is what bent my tail feathers.

I learned quite a bit from this particular situation - including, be prepared to hear something you do not expect and the work better be able to stand up in the craftsmanship department as well as the form and design originality. So, now I really take a good hard look at the work to see if it hits high marks for skill and form before I even take the time to finish it. I have a small pile of dead pieces of finished work. One of my goals is the never have to put another piece in that pile.

Ray

Reply to
Ray Sandusky

Ray, It makes me wonder if he wasn't performing for his followers rather than interested in giving some useful feedback. Too bad.

That's a good lesson to learn, although at some expense to yourself. Dan

Reply to
Dan Bollinger

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