Musing about worth of turnings

Arch

Great point! The value of an object is indeed not just the amount a person will pay for it, but, also it is inclusive of any intrinsic significance that may add perceived value.

For example, when I have a sale, I price my works based upon 2 or 3 factors. First, I look at the item. Is it an object of beauty? An almost beautiful object? Or is it ugly? If it is high on the beauty scale, the value goes up. Beauty is a combination of form, the wood's figure and the other types of markings - spalting, bullet holes, staining, etc.

The second significant value driver is the story behind the tree. If the tree stood along main street in Your Town, USA and was planted by one of the founding fathers, or if it was the tree that stood on an estate or if it was felled in a particularly violent way, then the value goes up - the story is important. If there is no story, then there is nothing that sets this object apart! If I have a tree that has no story, then I have nothing to assist in hiking the price other than the beauty of the object. So I try to find wood that has significance.

The other things that can increase the value of the item - the rarity of the wood - IE: American Elm - this species is going extinct and there are few trees available that are large enough to produce a large item. Another is the placement of the piece in the tree - "that piece was made from the branch that fell through the courthouse window."

So, I say, the value is what you make it - you produce the item on your lathe, but the tree that stood on that particular spot for the last 120 years is what you made it from - there has to be a story behind that tree!

Find the story (even if that story says "this artist has 3 pieces of his work in such and such museum") and you will definitely find buyers - no matter the price!

That's my two cents!

Ray

Arch This question brings up the whole topic of whether what we make has any value at all. After all, as I told a lady who was complaining that my salad bowls were too expensive, you can buy a serviceable facsimile at the local Wal-Mart or whatever for three bucks in good plastic. What we make is obtainable cheaper in mass produced form in various materials including quick turned and poorly finished but adequate wood. What we sell may be good or great craft, but I believe it is purchased for the esthetic qualities of the wood itself coupled with the nuances of the turner who produced it. Some of us at some times are able to produce true art, whatever that is and I am not trying to open that can of worms again. The price may depend on the time and material, but the sale depends on the wants and needs of the purchaser. As a salad bowl, that

12 inch piece of ash may be worth about three bucks, as a nice piece of wood that begs to be held and admired for the beauty of the wood and, I hope, the turning, it may be worth $85 or more. Thanks for a chance to ramble Arch.

Arch,

I would split the distinction as "cost to produce" vs "value". My rule of thumb is that the price I can charge is based upon the value as perceived by the customer/market. I determine this by looking at what other turners charge for like items in my area. I also have a rule of thumb that it costs me $30 per hour (including my pay) plus the cost of the wood to make things. I generally don't turn items that don't fit this model unless I want to turn them for fun.

For example, I used to turn Dick Sing-like ornaments, but I couldn't produce them fast enough to make it worth my while. Instead, I've switched my ornament design to something that is less demanding on my time.

On the other hand, my current fancy is off-center turning and vessels. I'll spend as much time as I want on these right now because they are particularly fun for me and I don't care about the cost.

Arch

I read your post with interest. I think you touched on the key factors in pricing our work but as the group COCIR (crusty old coot in resident) I was expecting a little bit more.

When we set a selling price we consider the value to the customer. The customer sets the final price and value, but there is still a value to the turner. This is a non-monetary value. The questions that set the value are is this your first piece, is it your best piece to date, did it come out better than expected. Are you turning this piece to be sold or is it for someone special.

Each piece of wood we turn is special. That is why we are turners. We grow from each piece of wood we turn as each bowl grows from our efforts. I just finished turning 2 candle sticks from wood used as decorations at a wedding. I do not know the value the young couple will set on the candle sticks but becouse of the honor of being asked to turn something the non-monetary value to me as the turner is far greater than any price set on the candle sticks.

Henry

Folks,

Part of the perceived value are tangible items such as business cards and boxes and bags with your name on them.

A larger intangible value is that customers who purchase our work are "buying" a piece of the "craftsperson/artist", so your "story" is a large part of what cause them to open their wallets. In my case, the story is a little bit of technical, but mostly what "inspires me to pursue my efforts.

I have had customers say to me at shows - "It was so nice to put a face to the name of the work I bought at a gallery several years ago" and "... I bought a piece of yours before you became 'someone'".

Customer comments have reinforced the image that educating my customers about how and why I create my craft/art is the most important aspect of discussions with them when they visit my booth.

George

This is an interesting discussion. I am new to turning, but have a lot of experience with pricing. The principles are always the same.

Setting price has nothing to do with the cost of an article or service. It has everything to do with the value in the marketplace. If a piece is for utility only, then contrasting it with other substitutes can give an idea of market price. If it is more durable than substitute X (and durability is important or a "good"), the price will be higher than X's price. If it is less attractive than substitute Y (and being attractive is a "good"), then the price will be lower than Y's price. These examples are "all else being equal".

The same thinking applies to all the other attributes discussed like beauty, value of handmade, uniqueness, etc.

Cost. Cost does have one important function at this point. After we determine what the market price is, we all decide whether or not to supply the article based on our cost.

So, what happens if you use cost (sometimes called Cost Plus Pricing) to determine your price. Three cases: If your Cost Plus (CP) is below the market, you leave money on the table. If CP is the same as market, you are right by accident. If CP is higher than market, noone will buy your products.

This is a simplistic explanation, but it is true and useful to understand. I have explained this to marketing VPs and CEO who didn't get it.

I hope that I didn't bore :) anyone. Being a turning newbie I thought that I might be able to contribute for once.

John

I'm not so sure. An item of extremely high worth may actually be priceless. ;)

You forgot to add the turner's reputation. That can multiply the price, all other things being equal.

The easy test for value is to keep changing your price and see what happens to sales. You will soon find the optimal balance between price and quantity sold.

Not to me. Original thoughts are hard to come by. Many people go through their entire lives without having one. If someone has an original thought I think they have a right to brag about it.

I long ago gave up trying to price work by time & materials...Of course, it is important to know what you are spending and how fast you are working if you do repeatable items like stoppers and pens, but when you begin dabbling in 'art' and one-of-a-kind stuff, the rules vary!

If I take a large, rare piece of expensive wood, work for a month on it, and it comes out awkward & ugly...is it 'worth' $4000? Or if I take a free piece from by back yard and in 3 hours end up with something drop-dead gorgeous and elegant, should I sell it for $60?

A LOT depends on 'image' (surroundings and circumstances of the sale) and literally, WHERE you are selling....the same piece may be looked at differently at a local high school craft fair or in a decent gallery...and one $200 piece surrounded by a bunch of $30 pieces may seem awkward.

I am heading for the biggest show of the year this weekend, and I have 2 or 3 of the nicest things I have done...including the single most expensive item I have ever priced! The wood was free, but it was 3 days of HARD work, including 4-5 hours of sanding! (preceded by an hour of delicate bandsawing to get it to a point I could even mount it on the lathe!) What was it? It was a 7" tall hollow vase made from the root of a Yew bush (it was just a mass of roots and dirt when I started,,...you may see it here:

and here is a larger piece (low & wide) from the same root...(twice thesize and 4 times the weight of the vase...but cheaper!) me, holding one while the vase sits on the kind of root they camefrom (these are pretty large files..slow on dial-up connection.)(does anyone have an idea why I get the amazing purples in the part thatwas way below ground?)...anyway..I will see this weekend how they go over with adiscriminating audience! *grin*

Very nice work, Bill I can't speak for the rest of the group but I sure would like to know If you got what you were expecting for the pieces.

thank you, Ralph! I appreciate the vote. It makes me nervous to post those here where so many turners I respect hang out!..... I will post something next week on how it went. I have made 2 other 'major' pieces from Yew root, and they both sold so fast it scared me, for $185 and $225...so I know that unusual pieces WILL sell if they have the right audience. 10 years ago, I never dreamed I'd be making pieces with holes and broken edges, but now I have to force myself to do something with a simple, solid rim.

I was just thinking...one way I do price is to take several pieces that I do feel I have a sane, fair price on, and ask myself how the NEW piece stacks up...and then my wife and a couple of friends tell me to raise the price by 20% *grin*. (One piece I had for 5-6 years and it just would NOT sell...so every season I raised the price, starting at $65....when it reached $110, it sold!...go figger!)

Hi Bill, Thanks for you thoughts and pics. You need not be nervous about showing your work. The pieces are a pleasure to view. The biped holder perhaps a little less so! ;) I know the show will be a success for you. Best, Arch

Fortiter,

ah, Arch...that biped display holder has seen better days! It wishes it had learned about wood at 20, rather than 50! But like those Bristlecone Pines, it just keeps hanging on! Thanks......

I'd suspect minerals in the soil.

- Ray

well, I learned something today, the first day of that 3 day show. The 'cheaper' piece ,

within an hour and a half at $245...ane the little piece at thebottom right, which was just a flat section I had bandsawed off in themounting process and then polished, brought $20 soon after!..The womanwho got it said she was going to pierce the edges with a Dremel and addthread or fiber windings and wear it as a necklace. The only point of this is to note that there is a market for almost ANYpretty piece of wood, and that it is terribly hard to answer Arch'soriginal question easily...since it took me 4-5 hours of hard work tomake that bowl, and the little flat slices took maybe 10-15 minuteseach..You do the math..*wry smile*.......I did learn long ago that'perceived value' is the important thing....if a shiny piece of wood isgoing to be used as jewelry by a woman, it is worth more than the samething made into a refrigerator magnet...... In the same way, turned items are *usually* of greater 'perceived value' as art objects than as candy dishes...especially if they have natural/rough edges or holes in the sides! Later in the day today, I finally sold a few 'useful' bowls with solid edges......but I am aware I always need to have some of both types available, as some people WANT functional items and/or have a limited budget.

Maybe in a few more years, I'll write a treatise on pricing! (I HATE pricing! I know now why many turners keep everything or just give stuff away as gifts.. ....so, we shall see how it all goes for two more days.....

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 19:22:01 -0500, Bill Day wrote:

I have a few more thoughts on value, following one of the best shows I have ever had......thus, I am appending them to this earlier post so they can all be read as one unit for those who may have missed the first.

We all know there are several things which can bring 'value' to a turning.. usefulness: lidded boxes, candy dishes,goblets, salad bowls...etc..

aesthetics: shape, color, grain, finish, size (large OR small)..etc.. A subset of this is 'features' like worm holes , bark, voids, limbs, etc. Somewhere in the list is things that are 'added', like dying, painting, inlay, bleaching..etc.

name recognition: work by a 'known' artist, or from a famous wood or tree (The Wye Oak in Maryland was recently cut up for projects). Pink Ivory 'could' be considered here, as I HAVE sold some simply because of the appeal of owning something considered to be rare.

personal interest: a tree they know, a wood from their home or friends home or town...etc.

now, let me add also...the ARTISTS own input and interest. That is, the customers realization that the maker cared and thought and struggled to create the item..... These last 3 categories I sort of summarize with the idea that people like to buy a *story*, not just a turning. What I have found recently is that the more I talk about wood and it's folklore and history and properties, the more I sell it. (If, of course, it is a decent item fairly priced). .......Sure...you have to learn when to be quiet and let the folks just look, but sitting in a corner reading a book and having no 'information' beyond a common name of the wood is courting disaster, unless you have really amazing pieces and/or prices. (Yes, pieces sell in galleries without the artist there to explain it all, but usually only the best pieces...and I suspect that IF one was able to be there to add the 'story' dimension, sales would be even better) It is possible to provide some printed information with wooden items (beyond noting the wood type), but I am SURE that several of my sales this past weekend were concluded because I gave the potential customer a 'feel' for the wood over & above the standard aesthetics and usefulness values. (The last sale of the day was a pretty , but simple bowl of Chechem--'Metopium browneii', also known as "Black Poisonwood", from the Yucatan Peninsula of Mexico...Explaining why this wood was only fairly recently available because of the nasty sap in the bark made it much more interesting than just a bowl of pretty wood.) I try to learn ALL the genus/species names of the wood and know where it comes from and what its characteristics are, and provide them IF the customer seems to care..(not all do! *wry grin*)

I hope this long-winded analysis doesn't sound like I'm preaching, or that I think you all don't already realize much of this, whether you have written it out or not!...I just wanted to put these thoughts in one place where they might stimulate more musings like Arch's and maybe serve to focus more ideas on one of the most sticky issues in crafts....value.