As I work with LONG fine steel needles, I come to understand why knitting in public was discouraged. Long ago, much knitting was done on long steel knitting needles. I would not want to sit next to someone that was knitting fast and furiously with long steel needles. It would be like sitting next to someone that had a pair of mating porcupines on their lap. Now, I suspect the blokes that made comments about my knitting on the train in GB had sat next to their grandmothers as children; and had been poked by the DPN as their grandmothers knit jumpers. Those blokes probably had good reason to think there was something rude about knitting in public. On the other hand, Californians do not make comments about my knitting, because as children, they never had to sit next to flailing DPN.
Moreover, in the old days, yarn may not have been so clean. Sheep farms and wool mills were not traditionally clean places, and who knew where the yarn had been. Working with yarn of unknown cleanliness in a pub around food and drink, or leaving lint in public spaces would have not make knitters too popular.
But, now we have circular needles and single point flexible needles, so public safety is not so much an issue. Now, we have cleaner yarns. So I no longer see valid reasons for not knitting in public. But, I do understand the cultural bias against knitting in public. There was a time when it had a practical basis.
There may be a generation gap, but when I grew up, everyone knitted in the train or tram, or bus. When you see the Agatha Christie movies, no matter who has the lead role, all the Miss Marples knitted where ever they went. It was very common, in Europe that knitting was done in public. I am talking about 1920- 1930- 1940 etc. There may have been a period that there was not that much knitting going on 1980, however I still think that there was a solid core of knitters at all times. I moved to Toronto in
1957, at 21 years old. The subways were build during that time and when I traveled, on the subway, streetcar, and bus, I would see the same European woman knit or crochet, having the ball of yarn sitting in a bag on their laps.
When knitting was done with (unwashed ??? homespun yarn, as you relate) I would think that public travel was not as common, and that we are talking a much earlier timespan, when yarns where not mass produced. Wool mills may have been dirty places, but I am sure that the fibers where always washed before they were processed, it would have just been to costly, to have to repair the machinery, that would get clogged up with animal oils, dirt and vegetable materials, to not wash the fibers first. At the same time, i would think that those yarns were destined for more mass production of clothing and bedding etc. I do not think that you could buy factory produced yarns in retail stores.
In general it was and is accepted to knit or embroider, or crochet in public. Maybe a rude or ill mannered person would and will make a comment, but in the broader sense, I have never heard a comment or public outing of negativeness about knitting in public. It may have been a class thing at one time who did and who did not knit in public, but even that, I think was not a big issue. I think you encountered some rude people who not necessarily represent all of England. I think that there is a video of Kaffe Fasset, sitting knitting in a train in England. He did get some commence, but more on "what are you doing" and " what are you making", and that ended up in impromptu knitting lesson on the spot.
Aaron i never had long steel needles , nore had my mother or grandmother, Nore for that matter can i recall long steel needles. in the 50s , 60s 70s , it was common to see women [ in winter[ knit every where ,,, than it became somehing Not done , it is a combination of The Feministic rise + commercial stuff + more women working outside .. mnay in tiresome typing pools or factories ,,,, I don`t think that anybody of the age group you speak about would have such a recollection as you try to give here .... mirjam
I happen to know people who play football and embroider , and i know lawyers who pick a fight [because of a prejudice] without a drop of alcohol.I think Aaron that generalizing like this is no better than saying :Blime there is a man knitting !!!" . mirjam
I think there's got to be some generational gappage going on somewhere. When I was growing up women my mother's age (post-WW2 children) didn't knit/crochet/sew yadda yadda because it was inconvenient. They were working women and could purchase made things. I learned crochet, knitting, embroidery, tatting and rudimentary sewing from my granny, who was born in 1919 and remembers quite well the prospect of going naked or making it oneself.
I have several books containing photos of "generic British women" going about their daily business with knitting in hand - usually on foot or perhaps riding on the back of a cart bound for market. They're using long needles, sure, but they're not stacked like sardines in the Tube doing it, either.
Speaking of Tube Sardines, I wonder how that bloke's foot is who tried to feel me up in the District Line ... I mashed his instep fair and square and didn't he yelp, too! :D
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Mirjam, I have a pair of very fine long steel needles, but they are from the late 1800. My mother had lots of wooden needles. The DP sock needles she and my mother in law used where short and indeed from steel. Later on they were all from some sort of plastic. My mother and Otto's mother never used circular needles. Otto's mother died in 1991 and My mother in
1988. I did not start to use circular needles until the early 1990. True they are mush easier to use, but still the regular needles work well any time. However I have never had anyone complain to me, about using any kind of knitting needles in public. Any time I have been doing any kind of textile techniques in public, I have been asked questions and have been shown interest in what I was, and still today, am doing. Lucky me, I have never met up with rude people while demonstrating or just braiding or knitting in public. I think it is just the opposite for me, each and every time it has been an opportunity to share and get to know folks. For instance, on our way home from Toronto, we had a couple of hours stop over in Calgary. When I took out my braiding a woman came over and sat next to me, wanting to know what I was doing. We started to talk, and while I showed her the simple steps of a Kongo Gumi Braid, she told me that she was going to visit her daughter who just had a new baby. Turned out she also lived on Vancouver Island and knew many of the Guild members in Nanaimo, who I also knew as weaving and spinning friends. I gave her my start of the kumihimo braid and told her to come and see me if she had problems. Just two days ago she E-mailed me about her new grand child and her progress with the braiding. Big smile, right......LOL
Wooly you make me smile......good for you, stamping on his foot. He got of easy, I would have kneed him in the groin, and yelled at him at the same time, the nerve of him
On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 22:16:41 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@telus.net (Els van Dam) spewed forth :
Heh, he was behind me so I did what I could. Had I been facing him he'd have gotten a knee in the crotch and I would have tried to get his ACL too.
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Why "grandmothers" specifically? Their mothers may have knitted.
The local yarn shop here in Maryland didn't go out of business until around 1996; up to then there was a solid core of knitters here.
Actually, yarn was produced by spinners for retail sale since at least the middle ages. Professional knitters did not spin their own yarn, nor did the weavers or dyers. Anyone who wanted to knit could buy yarn. As I understand it, part of the process of making yarn is to set the twist by washing it. Even wools spun "in the oil" were washed first, and then a measured amount of oil was added back in, to make a consistent product.
People knitted in public all the time; at one time there were ordinances passed to prevent children who were in knitting school from wandering the streets while they knitted, for fear that they would get into mischief, but nobody tried to stop adults from knitting anywhere they wanted to.
There are photographs of groups of women in Cornwall gathering at their regular knitting places on the cliffside paths to watch for the return of the ships.
People simply knew how to arrange themselves so that nobody would be hit by the free end of a needle, the same as people arrange themselves at dinner tables so as to avoid accidental elbow-jabs. There are also many different ways to hold needles and yarn, some of which may give more control than others.
Paragraph spacing can help make your posts easier to read. When the sentences are all in one long paragraph, there are no rest stops. Also, in English we don't repeat commas, and the repeated full stops/periods [.......] mean that the next part is still part of the same sentence, so your sentences all seem to run together.
I have added paragraph spaces only to your post below. In some places there were extra letter spaces; I wonder whether something odd in the posting system has actually removed line breaks that you had put in.
Actually, I have only heard 3 comments in the form of "Expletive, Theres someone knitting!" , that I took to be derogatory. All three times it was made by older guys in football colors drinking beer on the train along the Yorkshire coast. Twice at me, and once at a woman knittng at the other end of the railcar. I have never heard such comments in North America. Not even in Las Vegas.
I have developed a love-hate relationship with my long DPN. On the one hand, they let me knit fast and tight with minimum wrist strain. On the other hand, they are dangerous. I mean, I am a careful worker but I have gotten my blood on my WIP.
I speculate that any family that successfully raises kids while the women of the family are knitting on long DPN must firmly ingrain rules about the dangers of knitting. Since knitting on 5 long needles is a tradition of the fishing fleets near where I heard the "Expletive, Theres someone knitting!", it was not hard to imagine that long ago, every young boy was wedged against his grandmother as she knit, and the boys were poked by the knitting needles and remained resentful of people knitting in his presence. I would not be surprised if grandpa told his grandson about the dangers of knitting needles and the resentment against knitting has lasted for generations. Of course this is pure speculation, but I certainly would not want to sit next to me as I flail my long needles. I use safer knitting needles in public. Sometimes technology changes faster than local custom.
I love the news clips of Eleanor Roosevelt knitting. To a certain extent, I feel that Mrs., Marple's knitting was to represent the unique industry and tenacity of her particular character. I do not remember that most of the other female roles in those movies also knit. AC is not like Jane Austin, or Tolstoy where every woman had her needle work. And, there are knitting needles by Faberge made in the late 19th century and set with (huge) precious jewels from that were certainly meant to be shown off at fan cy dress balls. Knitting in art has many purposes.
There was a time when I took my knitting to parties, and BBQs, pubs, and other places where people were eating and drinking. Then I bought a bunch of Reynolds's Lopi. It knitted fine, and made great ski hats and ski socks. I did not realize how dirty the yarn was until I washed those socks for blocking. The nasty stuff in the bottom of the wash tub was an eye opener. So, even today, there is the possibility of dirty yarn.
Now, I wash my hands after working with yarn. And, I wash my knitting before I wear it. Period! When I travel, I carry alcohol wipes that I use after knitting and before eating or drinking. And, I certainly do not knit around food or drink.
Now! What mother among you is going to tell me not to wash my hands after working with wool? It may not help, but it can not hurt!
Elsje this is lovely to hear, and as you say ,, over the years i also had many people who were facinated by my knitting or crocheting, enough to say they wanted to try it themselves ,,,, The neateset ever reaction , was the soldier who fell asleep and woke saw me knitting, smiled and said :"it makes me feel at home , next to my mother " But from time to time there are other reactions. My pondering now is whether to do it in a hall full of people listening to some serious lectures. I really don`t want to attract any attention, nore cause anyone to be distracted. Still i am so late in my work schedule.... Maybe i will Just Knit the 4 hours on the train ? mirjam
The Only dangerous thing i find about knitting with DPS in public , is Loosing them. Have knitted on circulars for so many years that i can`t remember when i didn`t. Since i knit in one piece, the part where i use Dps [ middle to cuff of sleeves] is already too big to be worked on in a bus , or such place. Even if some of those remarks that i hear aren`t kind i would never think they are deragotory...I see it more as signs of Changing Socail Behaviours. mirjam
I have a stash of needles that includes my mother's needles. In all of this there is one longish steel double point. I don't know if it was originally hers or whether she got it from someone. (for time reference - mother was born in 1902) I actually use it quite often as I find it useful when I am doing cables - I know that sounds silly but I am used to using it and it works for me. It is longer than my regular double points but not extremely long - probably around 10 inches or so. I don't remember seeing mother use it and I don't know if she ever had a set of dps that length.
The only wooden or bamboo needles I have are those I have acquired or made - mostly within the last 15 to 20 years. There are some older casein (sp?) needles etc in the older stuff. I don't think mother saved much in the way of prewar needles - she did have some nice older thimbles in her sewing stuff though. (Those got distributed to various female family members when her stuff was sorted when she moved to the nursing facility.) DH doesn't remember about his mother - too bad as she was more of a knitter than mine was. (Mine was too busy playing sports - golfed well into her 80's)
I had to use the instep smash manuver in the Paris Metro once. It seems to be effective. I think the recipient was truly surprised that he wasn't allowed to get away with his unacceptable behavior. (In those days I wore heels too - which may have helped.)
Aaron nothing wrong with washing your hands anytime, LOL. I am sure that each and every knitter will wash and block there knitting. Just like I will always wash my spinning and also wash and press my weaving. That is done as the finishing process, always. I am also sure that yarns are not clean when you buy them. They have been everywhere so I will not dispute that. I was just saying that the original dirt and oil from an unwashed fleece is no longer there when you start to knit with it. It may have industrial oil from the factory, to aid in the spinning, or from the machinery, as well as any dirt that is picked up during the moving from A to B and finally to Z which is the knitter. But I am splitting hairs here.
I would just try it somewhere sitting at the last chair in a row, and not under a big light. and even maybe where there is an empty chair next to me. Being Els van Dam, I certainly would knit, if it was not bothering anyone. You have nothing to lose by trying, don't forget to smile while you are knitting and also to listen carefully to the lecture. LOL
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