Also, a quick note - you don't have to buy your components at retail from the local bead store. You can get really good quality stuff at wholesale if you shop at shows, online and via mail order. That helps cut costs a lot while keeping the quality up.
-- Kandice Seeber Air & Earth Designs
authoritatively
Yes, and in spite of my mandate to sell Michaels products, this is what I hope to expose my students to as an option. There's a whole universe of suppliers out there. And lots of places that offer good value for the money.
Deirdre
I certainly 'heard' a value judgement. If I read in more than was there, I apologize, but am glad to have raised the issue so it could be addressed more explicitly.
I am happy that you don't despise hobbyists. It is where most people who get to be pros start. And lots of RCB posters who sell components depend at least in part on marketing to those who are never going to 'go pro', but only buy for their own personal use and for making gifts.
It would be really self-defeating (not to mention unkind and unfair) to make such customers and fellow-beaders feel devalued or dismissed.
Deirdre
I guess I object to using words and phrases like "flea market seller" and "hobbyist" as put-downs. Whatever the context. If I have raised that issue so people think about the effects of doing this, I have done what I wanted to do...
Deirdre
Thank you for your comments Deirdre. I had thought maybe I wouldn't post here any more as I was feeling a little squashed as well. I know I have a lot to learn and I am trying but I was beginning to feel that if I didn't start out as a top notch artist that others feel they are, that I had nothing to offer anyone. I am going to continue making pieces the way I see fit as I seem to have people interested in what I am making. Over time, I hope to offer more - or decide this is not the hobby for me. Mary Close To My Heart Consultant
This is what I was afraid might be the case. I hope you will stick around a while longer and see how many of us are in the same position as you: learning and developing, but knowing there is more to learn and options we haven't explored yet.
I like to try things for myself, and make my own quality decisions based on experience. I don't think anything, or anyone, has more authority than what I try and discover for myself.
If I learn something, I try to share it here. That especially includes the stuff that doesn't work. Not in a "you mustn't ever do this" way ... more in a "let me spare you some grief" way. But I think everyone has the right to use and do whatever they choose in their own creations, and their own marketing explorations, and to see what happens for themselves. Their needs and their experiences may be different from mine...the market they want to reach may be different, too -- and they have every right to explore all the options available to them. That's how I see it.
Deirdre
The utterance was not the problem. The problem from my perspective was feeling as though if I choose to use less than the absolute best I have nothing to offer any potential customers and might as well quit before I begin. As this is truly a new hobby to me, it is also a learning experience and I am only dabbling in it to see what the results are......and so far, I have had many good comments from others who like what I have made. I am not trying to make products that will fall apart but so far everything I am personally wearing has held up fine.
If you are referring to acrylic type stamps, we only carry alphabets in that particular type. If you mean personalized stamps, yes we do but they are designed on rubber.
Mary Close To My Heart Consultant
Y'know, I never thought of those as demeaning or belittling, nor do I believe Sooz meant them as such.
It seems interesting that *you* do, though, and that perhaps those are
*your* feelings and you are disappointed in having them.I have been on the list only a short time, pop up now and then, shoot myself in the foot, eat crow, but I have noticed that you do seem to read into messages intentions that were not there. That alas is one of the problems with written word...we read in our own voice, with our own baggage, and with our own prejudices.
I am willing to admit that I have 'filters'. I don't think I was alone in my viewpoint this time around, though. Just alone in expressing it.
I am willing to be in the position of being the only one to state something I see out loud, when I think it is important. If I am wrong, then I'll take responsibility for being wrong out loud, too.
This particular time, I think I perceived things that were not illusory or put there by my own prejudices. If you think so, then I acknowledge your right to say so, and differentiate your viewpoint from mine, so people are clear about our different perceptions.
Then others will make up their own minds, based on whatever they perceive themselves.
To me, that is what public discourse *is*. Many perspectives, expressed as well as the people who hold them can express them. Hopefully, with some care and respect for those involved in the conversation.
Deirdre
vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from snipped-for-privacy@aol.compuppies (Dr. Sooz) :
]I could've said it more gently. I totally have to admit this. But I also lost ]patience with Mbryt because she has the attitude of, "Well, I don't pay ]attention to those things when I buy jewelry -- I don't need 'em, so my ]customers won't either." And she doesn't seem to care enough to develop a ]better attitude. I was offended by her lack of concern for her customers. It ]bothered me that she had so little respect for the people who will be buying ]her wares.
and it WILL come back and bite her, sooner or later.
]Why should I care about her business sense, and her concern for her customers? ]Because I care DEEPLY about how beading is perceived by the "layman" (those who ]don't bead and who know little about it).
i knew that. honestly. it was evident in your posts. it was also evident that you were about to lose your temper, which i chalked up to your persistent pain problems in addition to dealing with an attitude that was strange to say the least. when you're working really hard to be at one end of the spectrum, it's very hard to understand someone content at the other.
your's can be a decidedly scary personality to go up against, sometimes, dear! but we love you anyway! at least i KNOW that when i ask you for an opinion, it will be gut-level honest - regardless.
**grin**----------- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books)
This is an opinion. It isn't meant to reflect on you or anyone else.
To me, a hobby is done for fun and personal developement. Having a hobby, and selling a product seem to me to be quite different. I am primarily a hobbyist. I started improving my product because I wasn't satisfied to wear or buy things less well made. Now as I'm preparing to sell things, to go semi-pro as it were, it is even more important to me to sell the best stuff I can. In addition to that, it's just not worth my time to make something that won't stand up well. It's like buying a great pair of jeans or a top, love wearing it, and then have it wear out in no time, and being unable to get another (or make another).
Tina
To me "hobbyist" means "amateur". Doing it for "love" not money. I consider myself a skilled hobbyist.
Tina
This perspective makes a lot of sense to me.
I personally see quality in terms of lasting beauty and durability, if I had to generalize. For me, some base-metal components can have those qualities. Brass can, and pewter can, and copper can. My basic criteria of judgment are: "Is it well made and functional mechanically, attractive -- right for the piece I am using it in from an aesthetic point of view, safe for the wearer, and made to last?"
If it passes on those counts, the specific metal used isn't the core issue for me. More possible options than gold, gold-filled and sterling pass those tests, and I will use them without feeling I'm letting myself, the buyer, or other jewelry makers down.
Deirdre
And there are plenty of such skilled hobbyists whose standards of quality match or exceed the standards of lots of the pros, IME.
Deirdre
vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from snipped-for-privacy@aol.compuppies (Dr. Sooz) :
]I knew you knew that -- this could become one of those "I knew you knew I knew, ]and I know you always know I know and..." things! Haw!
LOL!
----------- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books)
vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from Deirdre S. :
]And there are plenty of such skilled hobbyists whose standards of ]quality match or exceed the standards of lots of the pros, IME.
Becki would be a case in point - the first that comes to mind. Kathy N-V. [Tina is going pro, i believe] Sooz. there are a lot here.
----------- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books)
I just want care and respect represented in the *how* of what people are saying, as well as the *what*.
There is plenty of room for respectful disagreement, lots of points of view and many sources of information. Some of it mutually contradictory, no doubt -- but presented without malice or the intention to belittle or invalidate someone who disagrees, or comes from another 'camp'.
Deirdre
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 18:39:08 -0400, Dr. Sooz wrote (in message ):
Honey, you don't know scary. I control my temper most of the time, but get me ranting and raving on a few select subjects and I can frighten most people. Even the kids, who adore more most of the time, know enough to stay away from me when I get to that point. (BTW, I'm not one of those loud angry people, I'm one of those silent angry people)
I tend
I got the feeling that the original poster was getting defensive because she really didn't want to hear it. Kind of like when someone with a million years experience tells me something (anything) that goes against my initial experience. When I first started beading, I used Wal-mart beads and base metal findings because I didn't know any better. My stuff was still pretty, still got lots of compliments, and I even sold some. I still have a few pieces kicking around.
Then I found this place and started lurking. I heard about Japanese seed beads and Delicas and bought a few tubes online to see what the fuss was all about. As soon as I started working with the nicer materials, I realized exactly what the fuss was all about. Even if the finished product wasn't miles apart, I'd still use the "good stuff," simply because it's a LOT easier to work with.
I remember my first post on the group, where I bitched about Delicas and how I can barely see them, much less work with them. Sooz answered immediately, recommending an OTT-Lite. I still don't like working with Delicas, but I now know it's possible, and use them once in a while. I even made something with size 15 beads once - and once was enough for me. :-)
When I started beading, I got a subscription to Bead and Button. I've saved every issue I bought, and even bought a whole slew of back issues online. Back then, most of the projects looked impossible and insane - as in "Who on Earth would ever waste their time doing something that intricate?"
I sometimes refer back to those issues, and amazingly enough, most of the projects no longer look impossible, although I still think some are insane. (The woman who spent years loom-weaving a chicken necklace in size 22/0 beads comes to mind) It's yet another exapme of that old canard: The more you know, the more you realize you _don't_ know.
Respectfully,
Kathy N-V
P.S.: To our newbie beader friend. At least try some nice Sterling Silver or Gold Filled findings, and give them a try. To me, there is nothing more upsetting to spend hours stringing a project exactly the way I want it to be, and having the clasp or crimp bead break. Both happened to me when I was using craft store quality findings. The pot metal they use to make them (especially the gold colored stuff, I've found) is extremely brittle and falls apart if you look at it too hard.
The only thing I personally was trying to do was to offer up advice to another businessperson. If you're into beading as a hobby, that's a totally different ballgame. But when you posted, it was as a person selling jewelry. Beading as a hobby should not be treated the same as beading as a profession.
I think the majority of us here started beading as a hobby. There's nothing wrong with that.
However, in my opinion, when one begins beading, one should not start selling their work right away. Give yourself time to practice, and to get to know your materials. The selling should come later when you've done your homework. But that's just my opinion, and of course, your mileage may vary. I am sure there are tons of people out there who don't do things the way I do, and still get what they want out of what they do. I personally try to offer advice when I can. The original post was posted to the newsgroup to be seen, and therefore, the posting was open for discussion and advice. IMO.
Anyway. Good luck with what you do!
-- Kandice Seeber Air & Earth Designs
Well, I personally did not see those words being used as a put-down. And no one even eluded to anyone being despised for beading as a hobby or selling at flea markets.
-- Kandice Seeber Air & Earth Designs
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