Re: help please.

Actually, I can't think of a way that has more compassion for others' difficulties built into it.

Having felt many of the wounds yourself, you aren't going to devalue other people for being affected by theirs.

Deirdre

I have days like that. Don't let yourself get too down for being human. We ALL have bad days. It's just normal.

Sending good """"vibes"""" your way.

Tina, thank you for this eloquent post. You have really done you good deed for this week. I suffer from Bi-Polar disorder, but not depression to normal, but severe depression (once on the verge of catatonia) to mania (occasional psycotic features). Lucky me. Your description of living with depression is one of the best I've ever read. I hope you won't mind if I pass it on to others as I need to explain depression to them.

I usually explain it by saying that it takes all of my emotional energy just to get through the day; I don't have any left over for anything over and above that -- things like loving my husband, or enjoying an evening out with my friends. Or remembering my keys.

Thanks again Tina,

Jewitch

I am lucky to be able to be open with my Depression. I'm happy to have my description be useful, or to be shared. And I'm grateful that even though I have Depression, I don't have the constant worry that my mental state is going to switch, like you do.

A priority so basic as being loving to you husband or children, or getting out of bed to pee, sometimes really is all a person can do.

Tina

:) I'm trying not to worry about it so much. Which actually makes it easier to clean. (People who think I'm a perfectionist don't believe me when I say our house is a pig sty. But it is. If I don't watch it, we end up with rooms where you LITERALLY can't walk through, and even when I do "watch it" there are visible layers of dust around and I won't go into the kitchen situation. Oh, Mucha isn't much of a help either ;) bird droppings, seed husks, regurgitated seeds, and feathers EVERYWHERE.)

I used to come home, see this enormous mess, and feel it was a reflection of my inner state: a mess so huge and complex that it was impossible to deal with, and so all-encompasing that there was no non-messed up spot to rest my eyes on. I would walk around the house muttering about everything and DH would feel horrible (he feels like it is his responsibility to keep the house clean because he isn't working. For a while he had me convinced of that. The problem is, he isn't very good at it (not that I am either) and this pattern just made him feel guilty and me feel mad. (Luckily he is a GREAT cook although for both of our own good I think it is best for me to start cooking once a week or so at least)).

On this specifically I've been doing better... but then, it's been a LOT easier since DH has been out of town. I'm not a neat person by nature, but he just somehow can the entire place up in one day, even if he hasn't been home.

I've been through 2 years of medicine and 2 months of out-patient treatment (though in the out-patient treatment I wish they had focused more on the specifics of my illness... it was all group therapy and depending on the group present we may've spent more time talking about manic-depression or alcoholism)

After being through the hospital program I got to see very vividly how other people interact with these meds. Some people had vast improvements, some reacted to side effects and some didn't (many people just have side effects the first week or so. I had HORRIBLE side effects the first week or so going on or off any medication, and more subtle but ultimately unbareable side-effects long-term.) I can see why some people need them. Maybe I'm one of them, but I hope not.

The overriding reason I don't want to take the medicines is because they messed with my mind big time. The last set of them messed with me emotionally as well (though for a long time we thought it was just not a strong enough dose, and kept raising it...and I kept loosing more and more touch with reality.) As bad as I seem right now I am eons better then I was

4 months ago. Yesterday I was too upset to totally realize it but today I am reminding myself of it. It was horrible. The fact that I could not only think of a story idea but also write it down the week before last, the fact that I could drive a car or be in a room containing a large number of people in it or be touched by my husband and just feel mildly uncomfortable instead of wanting to run screaming... even the fact that yesterday I "only" felt like I wanted to quit, but didn't feel like I wanted to take a piece of our lab equiptment and bash it against the floor, and most importantly (for me) that when I DO have work to do I can understand it once again instead of sitting there in a complete haze, those are all things that weren't possible under the last several combinations of medicinces. And it took a long time to figure out it was the medicine and not just me going crazier.

Going off of them was something my (new) psychiatrist and I discussed carefully. It was originally supposed to be a "wash-out" and 3 month trial period. The last couple of times my improvement was so emense that he was totally behind me in my desire not to go onto any meds again, although he suggested which ones we would try next if we were to try some (older ones with odd side effects and very new ones which are very expensive, mostly, since I had tried one from each of the standard families).

I don't know if I ever really have ups. Since getting off all the medicinces I have had a large amount of time where I felt much better, with scattered worse patches which I was proud of pulling myself out of instead of letting them drag me all the way down again. This week has been a downward trend though.

They think I've had it since I was a teenager at LEAST after taking my history. When I told my mom, she said she wished we had figured this out sooner. She obvioulsy felt that I had had it for a very long time. (I personally can't remember being truely "happy" since I was pretty little, maybe 7 or so. (*Lsorta* that was when my brother was born. But I regard that as being the happiest event in my life, so I'm not blaming him!!)).

I started seeing psychiatrists and taking medicinces 2 (well, more like 2

1/2) years ago now, after my grandfather died. At the time I was completely overwhelmed with all kinds of activities and things pulling at me emotionally. I had always believed that medicines would be horrible, but at that time, after the doctor explained to me that it was probably a checmical problem, I was more then ready to say "I can take a pill and it will fix this?? Give it to me!". Unfortunately, no combinations of the pills have ever "fixed" it. Side-effects ranged to downright intollerable to just unpleasant, but none of the medications actually worked, and we kept upping doses until we got to the legal max, then switching.

Is this through medication, other things, or both?

I'm open to any tips although as you can see I'm biased against medication. (I have another appointment with my psychiatrist in 3 months. When he saw me last week I was doing so well, relatively speaking, that he asked if I wanted to make another appointment again or just "put him in my back pocket". If I still feel lousy then, MAYBE I'll try something again. Right now I want to stick it out... as impossible as that seems some days.)

I know people in the program felt that that was a big problem for me.

I think I have worked hard on disentangling myself emotionally from my parents and brother and cousin and grandparents, and for a while at least I feel I can't even see them as much as before because I need to be able to keep my emotional distance. They don't need or want my "help" and me worrying obsessively but silently about things I can't change just makes me crazy, it doesn't help anyone else. I don't seem to be able to distance myself from my husband this way though.

I really thought that I was much calmer and taking things less personally at work as well, but people's reactions to me yesterday pointed out that whatever I *think* I'm doing, I must've been appearing to react to things in my same old pattern. And yesterday wasn't the first time I've gotten such reactions since I've gotten back at work. So I started out mad at them, then after replaying in my head a bunch of times got really mad at myself.

*sighs*

Thanks for listening and for the advise.

I guess everyone takes a turn spewing their guts here, right?

marisa2

But you DID learn, and you share what you know. Good on you!! as they say in Canada. Sarajane

Sarajane's Polymer Clay Gallery

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yep, Marisa, we can if we want to!

something you said earlier really resonated for me--

This happens to me too. I live in a household with four very creatively messy people ,with me admittedly the the biggest "pile" culprit. Some days I can barely stand it--and in tracking my swings/insomnia/headache patterns, I notice that its right before my period that I can't stand the mess (tracking patterns on the calendar can be VERY enlightening over time...) What I do is to make sure there is a corner, or a wall area that is actually neat and non-stimulating. It may only be 2 feet of room out of a 2000sqft house, but hey....and when I'm "winding up" over the huge mess, I can stand there in the clean spot and take a few deep breaths and LOOK at a non-choas spot. The visual input is very important for me. Also, a white noise generator like a box fan sometimes helps; I sometimes get where the sounds around me physically hurt to hear. Sitting on dirt at the park a block away helps too---I can walk over where the "river" (ditch) is and sit under a tree for ten minutes and feel more grounded (literally!).

Sarajane

Sarajane's Polymer Clay Gallery

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Me too, we called Daddy "Mr. Clean" and my Mother is also rather phobic about mess. Losing something calls forth the greatest of anxiety for her, with many memorable episodes that my sister and I sometimes can laugh about...not usually when somehting is missing tho, as we do the same thing ourselves. Its a control issue---I'm supposed to know where stuff is--and when I don't, I have OBVIOUSLY lost all control of everything, right? But now, I can feel in control by allowing the cap to the pen to stay lost. Or replacing the lost scissors. Or just by making the choice not to look in the same place for the 10th time.... Sarajane

Sarajane's Polymer Clay Gallery

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-Sarajane worte>

--I'm supposed to know where stuff is--and when I don't, I have OBVIOUSLY lost all control of everything, right?

OMG!! You have hit it right on the head. That is exactly what I am feeling at those times. I feel like an abosolute failure. Now that is a prime example of black and white thinking. KathyH

Sure. And I think you'll get further if you substitute being gentle with yourself for being mad at yourself.

Does there have to be a 'culprit'? Someone to be mad at and take it out on? Or can you imagine your co-workers just being concerned about you, and wondering how to help? That may be all that is up with them.

Deirdre

Really?

When the migranes get bad I don't want to hear a fan or anything else. Just want to crawl into bed with the lights out and no talking allowed, especially by DH (for some reason certain people's voices bother me more then others. I think it has to do with the tones in their voices.)

I stopped eating dairy entirely, am getting more sleep (I sort of can't help it, as I said in another posting...not sure how long that will last though, and chronic insomnia isn't something you can just decide to cut out ), and have been using the "techniques" they taught us to fight panic attachs when I feel the edge of a migrane coming on. To my amazement, I can stop it from progressing into a full-fledged roaring nausious headache this way sometimes. I've lowered the migranes from 3-5 times a week to once every couple of weeks this way.

Actually, I am surprised I didn't have one yesterday; getting all worked up like that definately is a contributing factor. I sure am glad I didn't give in and eat the free donut yesterday morning although I would've seemed to feel better for a short while had I eaten it.

marisa2

LOL! I've done that too.

It is as if my -fear- of not finding it made it invisible. I will really 'see' it only when I have given up and resigned myself to never finding it anywhere (and therefore relaxed a bit -- into Surrender-state).

Deirdre

I think it's suitable for him to feel cleaning is his job. You should NOT have to be the one responsible for working, responsible for dealing with Depression, and also responsible for housekeeping. And you should not by into cleaning being your job as a wife. Co-dependence rearing its ugly head?

I don't do meds well. I have a worse side effects to benefit ratio than usual. So I do very low doses. No way does it fix me, but the little it helps me makes a big difference.

As I said, your "ups" could just barely bring you to normal in low end bi-polar. It also occurs in a high end variation where a person is ranges from manic to normal. But even without the bi-polar part, Depression still usually goes through a sort of cycle.

It's likely you've had Dysthymia most of your life (low level chronic Depression). It commonly progresses to full blown Depression if untreated.

What does *Lsorta* mean?

(Depression),

It's through everything I can manage. I do what I can for Depression. I can't get much help from drugs, but what I do get makes a difference. The biggest part has to do with understanding what is, and accepting the things I cannot change. Depression can also be described as "overstimulation" so I have to prioritise to chose what to spend my energy on, and along the way I've gotten rid of some unhealthy thinking that takes up too much thought. With the biggest one being Co-dependence.

It has been the cleaning out of unhealthy thinking that has given me such an improvement in my mental health that I have been able to come to accept the limitations of Depression.

medication.

Non-chemical things that help (keeping in mind that Depression is over stimulation). Exercise give more oxygen to the brain. So does Ginkgo. Get enough sleep. Yogic breathing (like Dierdre described) "belly breathing". Prioritize. Give yourself some sort of structure (a hard thing for me). If you are extroverted, being in the company of people, face to face, will increase your energy. I used to find going into a group of people who had no espectations of me like an AA meeting was useful. Vitamin B6 helps me, especially before my period. Get enough Calcium.

There are good calming herbs out there like chammomile. Mexican yam and soy help.

Check your thyroid, all 4 tests, because Hypothyroidism can cause Depression. Check your female hormones because inadequate Estrogen can cause trouble as well as interfere with absorbtion of medication.

But most of all simplify. Physical clutter contributes to mental exhaustion. Toss out whatever you can both physical stuff, and intentions, plans, etc (did I mention prioritize?). Even hiding clutter can help some, temporarily).

I really think your psychiatrist is not getting what's going on with you.

grandparents..............................

If "they" think Co-dependence is a problem for you, it probably is. Best book I know of is Facing Codependence by Pia Mellody. Unfortunately it may be out of print. You might try Amazon for it, even used. Next best would be Co-Dependent No More. The workbook used with Facing Codependence is Breakng Free.

Co-dependence is more than just disentangling, more than just re-acting. And a lot of it has to do with developing a mature and healthy ego/sense of self..

And it's tough, and I still have to be aware that it's a kind of natural thing for me to fall into.

Tina

YES!

Tina

I know, that's the worst-est part......its especialy bad if you KNOW that no one put it there when you weren't looking. Sarajane

Sarajane's Polymer Clay Gallery

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On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 20:07:41 -0400, marisa2 wrote (in message ):

I'm sorry, but your supervisor is a jerk. Figuring out who is worth keeping and who isn't is her job, not yours. That's why she makes the big bucks. I would have flat out refused to speak with her. If she tries this crap again, that's what I'd suggest you do. This isn't your headache.

Apologize. A real apology, not one of those "I'm sorry you pissed me off" ones.

In the future, figure out how often you want to be called, emailed, whatever before he goes and come to some agreement. I always worded it as "Please call me when you get there to tell me you're safe. If I don't hear from you by X, I know I'll panic, and then I'll be all over you once I hear you're all right and just didn't call."

People don't read minds, and in all likelihood, your DH didn't even think that he was upsetting you by not calling. Some families don't call unless someone is in dire shape, others (like mine) are up each other's butt, and we all know one another's business. My own DH's family never traveled anywhere, so they didn't even have a phone protocol agreement. After some discussion, we decided that a phone call or an email every day was what we wanted. (We like to say good-night to one another)

It will be fine, unless Mucha gets to him first and eats his dinner. My sister's cats do that, and it makes me crazy. My own Sophie isn't even allowed in the room when we're eating, because I'm really, really mean.

Kathy N-V