The Beadmakers Liberation Front

I don't usually top-post, but I think this needs to be said again....

Mavis

Sorry, I got the wrong end of the stick..

If the Quality is the same (not so likely comparing beginners/hobbyists to professionals) then the value should surely be similar.. Having said this, I agree that not so nice beads should not be priced anywhere near the professionally made/quality made beads. They are simply not the same product, hence, not worth the same $ value.

The extra $ worth I was talking about was if the bead was under-valued when put up for sale - Not as compared to a professionally made bead.

Hope this makes better sense..

Mavis

ROFL - Get their prices!! I wonder if they sell any..

It surely makes your point...

Mavis :-))

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 22:11:13 -0500, Christina Peterson wrote (in message ):

I don't sell things, so it isn't as big an issue for me. But I rarely give away pieces with lampworked beads. People just don't appreciate them. They might comment on how pretty they are, and where they might get one; but when I tell them that they're unique, handmade and can go from $10 on up apiece. (I know that's a lousy guesstimate, bear with me) Invariably, the person says "Ten Bucks! for one bead! Kathy, you're nuts!"

Yep, I am nuts, but I honestly believe that I haven't overpaid for the works of art I treasure. Until I find people who see what I see in those beads, I'm keeping all my lampwork for my own bad self.

Kathy N-V

Freakin' well said, Beki!! I think the group is well-intentioned and made up of good people. I also think that they need to consider that their liberation front may not change the market to what they want to change it to, because that just isn't the way it works on ebay. I agree about the use of the term Nazi as well. While the group *is* trying to get people to not post 99 cent auctions, and to raise their prices in general, several have come forward and said that trying to police pricing just isn't fair. Some others came right out and said they *do* wish there was a price guideline that everyone had to follow, and that they should call out certain lampworkers and try to get them to change. That's what got me fired up. But Nazi just isn't the right term, and is pretty mean, actually.

Here's what I posted there earlier today. I got several private messages that were positive, but most people in the thread have not responded to what I said.

""

Okay. I wasn't going to post anything in this thread, but after reading it all, I really want to now. I applaud the good intentions. I love Rita - she's fabulous, as an artist and as a person. However, I have a few issues with this Liberation Group, and I am going to post my opinions about it, while still trying to honor the fact that this whole idea is about empowering and respecting art.

Issue #1, which was brought up by someone else (thank goodness, otherwise I would be too afraid to post my thoughts) - 99 cent auctions are not always about perceived value. I have said this before and I will say it again - I post 99 cent bead sets on ebay to reduce ebay fees, and because I have confidence that my beads will get a good price. I have only been disappointed once or twice. eBay is an auction house, *not* a retail outlet. It's a game to many cusotmers. People do need to ba a little more lenient about price, but I *do* understand the need to ask for prices you can accept. That means when you list something, you need to be ready for what the market decides to do with it. So admonishing people for listing at 99 cents or 9.99 or 99.99 or what have you, is really not something that I see as good. A couple of artists have actually been named here in this thread, and some have been alluded to. That's not fair.

Issue #2, which is a broad and multi-faceted issue - Everyone in this art field needs to take a good long look at if and why they are not selling their pieces for what they would like to. There's a whole huge range of skill in this group. Some beadmakers / glass artists cannot command higher prices due to a whole bunch of reasons that need to be addressed. You can't just increase your prices, stand back and watch the money pour in. You need to consider your buyers. You're not letting them in on this group action - they will have no idea why you're doing what you're doing. To raise prices, you also need to raise the bar where quality is concerned. I am not just talking about the quality of the bead itself - I also mean the quality of service, and the quality of the auctions themselves. Someone posted guidelines on their web site and was torn to pieces on this forum, even though she is a buyer who spends a lot of money on lampwork. Customers need to be listened to. I know we all just want to make what we want and have it sell, but the bottom line is that the market does not always work exactly that way. There needs to be a blend of market research and artistic expression. If pink is really in this season, that's going to be what sells a lot. If you decide not to go with that flow, because you hate pink, that's totally fine, but you need to keep that in mind when pink stuff is selling for higher than your stuff. That's an over-simplified example, of course. And you know, I see a LOT of people complaining about ebay. Yet, there are successes on ebay *all the time* in the very categories we sell in. We all need to look at that and figure out *why*. I am not saying to ask those sellers for their secrets, or try and copy them. I am saying that we need to focus on bettering ourselves as artists. People have success because they make it. They pay their dues, work like dogs, have talent, and *make their success*. Stop complaining about ebay sucking. Start doing your homework and figuring out why ebay sucks for you. It's not always a "slow time of year" there.

Issue #3 - ebay is not black and white. It's a grey whale, baby. There's no "one way" to make it work. There's no one answer. There are hundreds, maybe thousands, of lampworkers listing there. You may think this group is large, here, but it's only a small fraction of the lampworkers listing on ebay. Your group may not get the results you're looking for, so be prepared for that.

Okay - I know I have been the person to post an opposing opinion on several of these types of issues on this forum. If y'all want me to go away, just let me know. I can handle that. But the many new threads about ebay being crap, and complaining about not getting the prices you want for your beads is getting really irksome to me. Maybe it's because I am not having the same problems you all are. And you know what? No one ever asks me why. Does any one care why?""

Well, it makes sense...however, art is completely subjective. There are no two beads exactly alike, so it's harder to price fix. Computer parts and insurance plans may vary form place to place, but have generally identifiable values. A set of lampwork art beads can be seen as ugly and worthless by one person and beautiful and worth a lot to another. Quality is an issue, but is only part of the equation. And ebay is still a capitalist environment. You absolutely cannot enforce or even imply a general price fix on anything - even things which are the same.

Of course not. But the fact is, that lampwork art beads are selling better than lampwork art jewelry right now, so costs are higher and sales lower for the jewelry designer than the lampwork artist, in general. There are more jewelry designers than lampwork artists, especially on ebay. It's supply and demand. A lot of lampwork buyers on ebay are collectors who are fine with paying a higher price, so you are having to compete with them for auctions, as well.

Actually, she sells a LOT.

This is a really important point. The vast majority of my customers buy my beads to collect and display, not to turn into jewelry. And not to turn into jewelry to resell for a profit.

I've found that a lot of the people who buy my beads are collecting them in the same manner one might collect... um.... teddy bears (eeeeeek) or something. I think it's cool, and I really relate to that, because I don't make or wear jewelry and enjoy lampwork beads more from the perspective of their being art glass.

I think Rita's idea is a good one, but I agree that the whole concept smacks of price fixing. I've been trying not to say anything about this, but I can't hold my tongue any longer. LOL!

My personal opinion is, make what you want... charge what you want... the cream will rise to the top. There are a lot of lampworkers out there getting prices they are happy with. There are certainly plenty of custormers out there ready and willing to pay what they need to to get what they want. Therefore.... I guess the key is to examine your work, improve your work, move forward, create what makes you happy and hope that it strikes a chord in the hearts of designers and collectors.

T>A lot of lampwork buyers on ebay are collectors who are fine with paying a

Thank you Tink.... Now I do not feel guilty one bit about all the lovely items I have just sitting here looking beautiful! I didn't want to make them into jewelry or sell them and now I know it's ok for me to just look at them and enjoy them. :)) I am very happy now and my stress level went WAY down!

Harry My Ebay Auctions are at

They felt that my wholesale prices were too high, so they couldn't sell them retail after their markup. I sell the same beads, with my retail markup (double my wholesale price) with no problems at other shows. I wasn't going to give them an accounting lesson. One less store with my beads in it isn't the end of the world.

KarenK

Thanks Tina! I've worked hard to get my math right and price my beads reasonably. I'm earning what I need, never losing money, AND taking into account all of my costs in the process. More is always great, of course, but I'm very content with my steady sales.

KarenK

Well, its pretty much not the way it works anywhere...except for maybe the dollar stores. Where you certainly get what you pay for. ;o)

And this was another point that I didn't quite understand. Who cares what the starting bid is? Its an auction. That is (or was) the whole point of the place. Live auctions work under the same premise. The auctioneer will attempt to start the bidding at the least possible amount they feel is fair for the item, if that doesn't work, they keep lowering the opening bid. This tactic is not there to devalue the item. It is there to incite bids. The more bids, the more percieved interest, the more interest, the more bids. We remain a simple minded species. ;o) Plus there are usually shills in the crowd to avoid a loss. If you are not confident in the fact that your item will sell for what you perceive its value to be on an auction site, then maybe you shouldn't be using that medium as a sales tool. I truely do understand that it is all good intent behind their concept. But there remains a few flaws that will keep it from becoming the idea they are after.

Oh, very well said Kandice. And I fear the lack of replies are again because we tend to be a simple species. It is always easier to go with the crowd instead of against them. Most all of us desire approval and praise as opposed to confrontation or silence. I, for one, agree with your comments and commend you for speaking your opinion.

I also wish everyone good sales and validation in their worth.

Beki

In addition, if you translate this concept into another area in the beading world, it also does not make sense. If you have a stay at home Mom with 3 kids beading an amulet bag in her "spare" time. Like between diaper changes, bottle washing, soccer practice, a few minutes of catching your favorite soap, making dinner, baths and bedtime, does her work represent the same value as a beadworker who devotes a full 8 hours of his or her day to creating?

The answer to that question for me is which of the two above mentioned beaders is the more skilled? Who produces the higher quality product? Who has the better artistic treatment of the item? Who pays more attention to the craftsmanship and detail to assure the item they are creating will last a lifetime? Which of the two has taken the time to locate their true market?

Beki

understanding on

"This is where you have to educate your costumer about how they are made and that they are a work of art. Just show them the difference between a cheap Indian bead and good lampwork bead and they will learn to appreciate the art. Roxan"

This is correct. I am learning about beads and now know the difference between cheap and quality. I am starting to collect the lampwork as I can afford it. And like some of the others, I don't want to resell them. I keep them and look at them (touch them) and some I'm making into stuff for me. They are too beautiful to part with.

Nope. :-)

I (so far) have only had two open houses, and done custom work. I've used very little lampwork up until now, but am having the same problem. I have a beautiful heart set that I paid $30 for on eBay. Well worth it to me. But it makes the necklace made from them cost out at $150. Will someone pay $150? Probably. But probably not in my market. So I won't price it that high. I find that I adjust my price formula when it comes out very high - I make far better profit margins on things like earrings, and simple necklaces, than I do on things like fancy necklaces and mother's bracelets. Since I am not trying to make a living doing this, it's ok for me. I don't think I'm grossly undercutting others either, just reacting to the realities of life in my market.

Karin

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