The Beadmakers Liberation Front

Having thought about the BLF a little more, I am rather rapidly going off the idea... As has been said not only in their thread but also in this forum, choice of how one sells their beads affects the price. If *they* don't like getting low $ for their beads, then don't choose the auction arena. Plenty of good suggestions have been made as to alternative ways of selling ones beads in the wc forum.. I hope some will take up these suggestions and run with them...

I have never and never will agree with price fixing.. Very uncompetitive IMHO

Mavis

I'm sure she does.. I was a bit TIC there.. ;-))

She does lovely work and I'm sure she has chosen her sales arena where she would get those prices. I think this is what many on the BLF should be looking at... not .99c auctions on Ebay and why they are so *bad*...sic

Mavis

Ahh, you said it so beautifully Sooz...

Sometimes I don't articulate well at all!! This is only what I have been trying to say.. LOL

Mavis

..."Some people don't know how to start..........."

This is something that should have been addressed. And by the way, Kandice is my role model for how to sell on eBay. The difference between selling wholesale (and for wholesale prices) and selling on eBay is the element of retailing. A lot of the retailing costs are much lower because eBay provides much of the advertising and acts as a storefront, without the rent.

But the other elements of retailing are there. You have to educate your customers. You have to explain why your product is better, you have to show why it's better, and you have to deliver what you claim and have a consistant product.

Consistant product means you NEVER sell anything but your best, unless you clearly state that they are seconds, even telling people why they are seconds. Admitting that "pairs aren't quite the same size ot that the colors are somewhat muddy, etc. If a lampworker doesn't let the customer know that they, the artist, know that the color is mudy or the shape is off, then I as a customer will assume that the bead maker doesn't know good from bad, or is trying to get top price for an inferior (from their usual, eg) bead.

And you have to show that your beads are worth your asking price. Over the net, that means photographic quality that is near professional. If you aren't that good at photography, have someone else do it, or anticipate lower prices. My photographics skills, or rather my lack of them, is one reason why I am selling wholesale.

And you have to take the time to write good copy. That's part of the job of marketting. You can ask for whatever price you want, but getting that price depends on marketing. Depends on working at marketing.

One reason that eBay can't command the prices a store front does is that, no matter what(!), you are always taking a chance on eBay. I might get a bead and see something on the back that is either better or less good than I had expected. I might get a bead that is wonderful, but have much more purple or cobalt in it than it seemed to have in it's photo -- so that it's just as wonderful as I thought, but not as personally pleasing, and not what I wanted to spend that much money on (you notice I am not saying it is not worth the price, but perhaps not worth it to me).

You can't really talk about pricing without talking about selling.

Tina

"meijhana" wrote ...

However, it is not undercutting to offer lesser beads for a lesser price.

Tina

"Dr. Sooz" wrote

wholeheartedly

Excuse me, Tink. I'm a little offended at the comment about "and not to turn into jewelry to resell for a profit". What a beader does is not to turn beads into jewelry for a profit, any more than what a glassworker does is to turn glass into beads for a profit.

Tina

It was an excellent post.

Tina

Very true.

Tina

"Dr. Sooz" wrote ...

This is so very absolutely true. There are many important factors in the valuation of art.

First there is the craft, the artisan skills. And that does not always depend on experience. For example, with my inferior hand and finger dexterity, I will always be a slower beader than my experience would dictate. And I'd swear some blassworkers have problems with depth perception.

There is also a level of artistic education that effects work. Most people need a little education to make something well balanced (in material and weight) and well proportioned and color balanced. It's really not something that any kid could do because it "comes naturally". Sometimes people profit from formal art classes, or from workshops, or from exposure to museums. But education does make a difference.

And then there is the element of serendipity. A beauty that just seems to occur, with no more effort than is given to other pieces. (And which happen more often with education and experience).

It's not just the size of the bead, the cost of the materials and the time spent that determine value. These are reasons why bead prices can't be figured by formula.

Tina

I'm glad to know that, because I really am trying to figure out pricing.

Tina

What Mavis said about this being true if anything one is selling is true. But I want to tell a particular story so you can all see how people are. I charges $55 an hour for kids parties in my entertainment co. bac in 1985. At that tim it was the going rate, but due to rising costs, I went up to $65. I had alot of competitiors in that city and we were polite with each other, but fell short of discussing price. So one person calls me on the phone and says, "look, I am going to raise my rate. To be fair to all, each of us should go up to $65." I had been at $65 for months. But, he didn't kow this. He tried to talk me in to his viewpoint, when my other 2 lines rang. On the end of each was another entertainer, telling me about him ... something was afoot. It took a few days, but the punchline hit. I was cold calling some businesses I worked with, an trying to book spring events ... his rate had dropped to $45. He cheapened himself, even though he was a quality act, and I am sure people wondered why he was so desperate. And he made all of us look greedy. But only for a time. People looked at him suspiciously, and hired all of us anyway. I presetly raised my rate to $85. And crossed my fingers. I had a way at that time to promote myself as #1, because I had just performed at the White House Easter Egg Roll. I touted my high quality and bet that people would pay my price based on the info I used to promote it. And I made the others look cheap, or ordinary ... and I won the day. I have been involved as a craftsperson since I was 16 yrs old. The question of whether or not we get paid our worth, has always been there and always will be. I suggest that you promote your artistry, show what you have and never care about the people who can't or won't pay what you ask. Yeah, and I am the one who had an emergency sale this year ... which was a different thing altogether. You mght need a better marketing plan if your stuff isn't selling at the price you want, or you might need to redo your promotional material or reassess the value of what you have. But don't sell yourself short. Only if it's an emergency ! Honeybunch

I probably buy sets of beads more often than focal beads. Things like that generally are most appropriately used made up into something.

Also, maybe think of this in terms of another art. Making fabric. Hand made fabrics stand alone as pieces of art. But people will buy more fabric made inro clothing than fabric used as a wall hanging or kept in a collection (including one of a kind pieces of fabric).

Tina

I just posted a long post on the thread in wet canvas, that can address your post here, so rather than typing it all again, I will be lazy :)

"Mary - no there are not two seperate groups. The gal who posted that we should form our own group PMed me and let me know she was joking when she posted that. I'm not joining any group, because I really don't agree with some of the ideas, so I wouldn't fit. I don't think any group should have the power to tell people how to run their businesses. Suggestions are fine, but policing is not. People should feel free to do what works best for them.

I think Rita's post was well-intentioned, and parts of it were even really cute and humorous. I think some of her ideas are great. However, she did contradict herself somewhat when she suggested we have a price per hour guideline (or any other pricing guideline, to "change the current pricing trends in the beadmaking/selling community"), but then said later she didn't want people telling her how to price her work. I am in agreement about not liking a group of people telling me how to price my work, unless that group of people are customers - at which point I may listen and I may take advice, if it works for me.

I think forming a "union" or official group is misguided and would not get you what you really want. I think educating the public on the differences between handmade lampwork and mass-produced lampwork is great. I think there are already groups out there that do this. ISGB, regional bead societies and more.

However, if people want to form a group, more power to you! I just won't be joining. I won't form my own group, or ask for factions, or try and work against the group.

And Rita - I was afraid to post my views at first, because I have been raked over the coals for doing so a couple of times before in other threads, because my opinion was not in the majority. But this time I am glad I did, because the response has been very positive. I've had numerous PM's from people agreeing with me who have not posted in this thread. So there are people reading who are not posting, but some do not agree with the nature of the group. Also, keep in mind that many people who are reading and posting here do not sell on ebay, so your quote below may not be entirely accurate.

Quote: And as far as ebay goes with an average of 3,000 listings in the US lampwork field that averages 5 auctions per seller for a total of approx. 600 sellers. Well this post has had over 1,000 views and nearly 100 posts. Which means that 1/6 of the selling community agrees with properly valuing their work and I see that as enough to effect a change. Not to mention how many of the readers who didn't post may agree. Unquote

Basically, what I am trying to say to everyone is that I applaud Rita for what she is trying to do, because I can see that her spirit is positive. However, before just jumping in, think about it for awhile. Aren't there things we could all do on our own to improve our situations? Do we really need a "group" which actually might foster a feeling of exclusion to some, or can we make the best of the groups which are already out there?

Anyway, whatever the outcome, these are just my views, and I really don't plan on changing the way I do things, because I am pretty successful on ebay and on my website these days, and it's working for me."

Also, I wanted to say in response to this - there are so many threads started everywhere complaining about ebay or asking why ebay is slow, etc. etc. ad nauseum. People need to try and at least search for other threads like that before posting their own. There are communities on ebay for just that kind of help. People need to read and do homework before posting. There are those of us who have answered those threads time after time after time who are really getting weary of it. Questions are fine. If you're new at this, ask away - but please do some homework first!! You say people don't know how to start. If they have found their way to a newsgroup or forum to post their questions, they can most certainly search the web for answers first. The web has tons and tons and tons of information on how to lampwork, how to sell on ebay and how to run a business. All I ask is for a little effort on their part before expecting people to take the time and effort to type out a long explanation about how to do whatever. That's all I ask. :) Research first. Then, if you still have intelligent, well thought out questions, post them! The majority of people here are really good at that. On wet canvas, it's somewhat of a different story. Even with all the helpful threads right there at their fingertips, there are still people who post "why is ebay slow?" and "what's wrong with my auctions?". Do a search - you'll see.

Yes, yes, yes!!!! Exactly!! Thank you Tink for putting it so well.

Again, soooooo well said. Thank you!! Damn, we're good here.

They are not overpriced, and yes, this person sells a lot of work. Her beads are very very detailed and well done, and they sell in jewelry and seperately.

Yep! And that is the beginning of being an art bead collector! Welcome to the addiction. And if you're well into the addiction, welcome to the affirmation of your addiction! There's nothing better than a gorgeous bead collection. :)

:) Yep! She's actually one of my faves right now. But that changes monthly, so.....