Being OT on RCTN

snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

The point I "heard" others trying to make (could be wrong, of course) was that the absence of a traditional grading scheme is not necessarily a virtue per se. There are great GT programs that *do* use traditional grades, and there are great GT programs that don't. There are great non-GT programs that use traditional grades and ones that don't. There are lousy GT and non-GT programs that avoid using traditional grades. When you said:

it really came across to *me* that you were suggesting that you were associating the lack of traditional grades with the emphasis on asking kids to think. Personally, I don't think the two have a whole lot to do with each other. You can have a class with traditional grades where kids are strongly encouraged to become critical thinkers (and you absolutely *can* grade their efforts in that direction), or you can have a class without traditional grades that encourages a herd mentality (seen plenty of those). So, yeah, I have no problem whatsoever with a program, GT or otherwise, that doesn't use traditional grades. I *do* have a problem with the notion that the use of traditional grades *necessarily* impairs critical thinking, or does a disservice to GT students. I think it can go either way, depending on the specific approach. My kids are in a center based GT program (i.e., not a pull-out program--they're in it full time). They have traditional letter grades. It works just fine for them, given the approach of their teachers. Obviously, it takes a lot more for them to get an "A" than it does for a student in a non-GT class. If that wasn't the case, they'd all be getting A's and they wouldn't be significantly challenged. A primary *focus* of their program is to challenge them to think more creatively, work more independently, push further into the material, etc. Their work is specifically graded not just on how well they parrot back whatever the material is, but also on how critical and innovative their thought is. Their teachers are more than capable of evaluating their creativity and originality and making that part of their grading criteria. And yeah, some of them whine about it (especially when they're new to the program and are used to getting A's all the time), and some of their parents whine too. Oh, well. Of those to whom much is given, much is expected. There's no reason they shouldn't work as hard at their work as those who struggle to grasp the basics have to work in their classes. That's one of the main reasons to *have* GT classes--so that gifted kids learn to actually buckle down and work, rather than bailing as soon as the going gets tough because they've never had to work for anything before.

Best wishes, Ericka

You offered that you couldn't grade creativity. I countered that I didn't understand why that was so. So no, there's no "big deal" about your daughter having a one-day-a-week program that isn't graded. It was your insistence that creativity couldn't be graded which I was questioning.

Dianne

Things are better today. But his teacher is a b*tch

Call me the local curmudgeon, but I think a lot of this blame falls squarely at the feet of the parents. Yes, there are some hare-brained administrators and policy makers who try out all sorts of wonky stuff, and there are also some bad teachers. However, most teacher I encounter do a pretty good job of trying to balance all the crazy requirements and do a decent job of teaching. But you know? They have a parade of parents knocking on their door complaining every time Johnny doesn't get an A, or that they're not doing whatever the current educational fad is, or whatever. It doesn't even take many of these people to get teachers and administrators teaching defensively. I used to teach at a university, and I was absolutely

*shocked* to find that I would get calls from the parents of college *juniors* and *seniors* complaining about the grades their kids got! And you can't convince me that those parents suddenly turned that way when Junior went off to college. Those parents were micromanaging their kids' education from day one, sure in their knowledge that Junior was always the best and the brightest and any shortcoming was due to a failure in teaching rather than the fact that Junior didn't bother to study or pay attention to directions. I had *parents* tell me that I had no business lowering a grade for spelling or grammar because I wasn't teaching an English class. I had *parents* tell me that it was unreasonable to expect the students to have read the assignments, or to have test material from the readings that wasn't explicitly gone over in class. In college!!! When I talk to teachers at elementary and secondary levels, I hear many similar stories. Whenever they try to raise expectations and encourage critical thinking, the phone calls and emails and visits from parents start pouring in about how their expectations are unreasonable. So, while I think there's plenty to complain about with policy-makers, and I agree that not all teachers are as good as they should be, I think that the effect of parents is insidious and often unacknowledged.

I have a similar opinion. I think that part of the problem has been an approach to treat education like any other business, and define "customers" and "stakeholders" and so forth. With that approach, you start focusing on things like "customer satisfaction" and such, and you start trying to

*please* the parents and students and get everyone into Harvard, rather than engaging students to step up to the plate and work to the limits of their abilities. It relegates parents to a very passive role, too.

Best wishes, Ericka

That's certainly true in a lot of cases; I see that all the time in the suburban school system I'm in and that was VERY true of the "selective" sub-Ivy university I attended. (Which is one reason I wouldn't dream of sending my kids there!) But that doesn't explain the abject failure of education in inner-city schools, in which there is little or no parental involvement (another problem in itself) and the teachers are "administrated" to such a degree that they *can't* teach. Where "capital-E Education" has become this big, overwhelming machine to crank out widgets (read: students who can read on grade-level) and they're failing at that, let alone creating an educated public (which requires so much more than basic math/reading on a third-grade level).

More than enough blame to go around, I guess. There are so many factors contributing to the problem, and any solution that jumps on one without the others isn't going anywhere.

And I think that is one of the major problems with NCLB. It has "one-size-fits-all" answers for situations that are very different. (One problem among many).

Sue

Yeah, I think NCLB is really heavily implicated with the inner city issues (not that they didn't have issues before NCLB). Now, the stakes are so high that they're administrating and teaching out of fear, which tends to make people rigid and stifles creativity. Maybe I'm naive, but when you look at the conditions in inner city schools (overcrowding, facilities in disrepair, low pay, inadequate resources), it kinda seems to me that it would be a miracle if they *were* doing a fabulous job of education. How many of us would be willing to work under those conditions? Throw in an at-risk population, and it just doesn't seem that surprising. But when it comes to trying to *fix* the problems, do we address the overcrowding, disrepair, pay, or lack of resources? Oh no, why would we do that? We just test the living daylights out of the kids and threaten teachers and schools with removing even more resources if they don't do well enough. Yeah, that'll fix things.... It seems to me that there are a few other issues that bear addressing before we wage an all out war on phonics vs. whole word vs. a combination ;-) I'm grateful that I'm pleased with my childrens' school, but sad that everyone doesn't have access to as good an education.

Best wishes, Ericka

It was recently pointed out that many schools get their budgets from property taxes. Therefore, the schools in the bad part of town where houses are assessed at $20,000 are automatically going to have less money than schools in the part of town where houses are assessed at $200,000 or $2,000,000.

That means the suburban school districts can pay better salaries and attract better teachers.

Which means that the inner-city schools are left with the teachers who can barely spell themselves. The California CBEST test given to substitute teachers has math I recognized as only up to about grade 7 or

8, and the other subjects were equally undemanding. Our worst schools will give an Emergency Teaching Credential to anyone who passes the CBEST. And since the CBEST does not require you to score 100% to pass, I suspect there are a lot of teachers in that school district who actually read and do math at about a 5th grade level. How can they teach the kids what they don't know themselves?

Note that I'm not even going there as to how someone who reads and does math at even a 7th or 8th grade level could have gotten a college degree so they "qualify" to take the CBEST in the first place.

Not naive at all, Ericka.

Sure, there are SOME dedicated teachers who grew up in the inner city themselves and have committed to going back and serving the inner city population, but most of the better teachers get out to the suburbs with higher paychecks the first chance they get.

And lest anyone think that private school is the answer, a friend's husband was a teacher at a school run by his church, and even there, he was threatened with knives and guns. Kids who were thrown out of the public schools for being problems, if their parents could come up with the tuition, the church school was glad to take them, and because they'd have to refund the tuition, the school was loathe to follow his recommendations to expel these problem children. Needless to say, he wasn't willing to continue working under those conditions, so a good teacher left for a safer profession.

If things like overcrowding, disrepair, pay and lack of resources were addressed, it would be too expensive for schools funded by low neighborhood property taxes. We need State and Federal guarantees that money will be made available to fix the physical problems. But that brings us to another problem ... No Child Left Behind sounds real good on paper, but the Feds failed to provide the funding to make it reality. Poor school districts can't rustle up that kind of money on their own.

snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

A childs education begins at home. The guidance we provide helps us to understand and the child will flourish. We also help the teachers teach the lessons so varried, by instructing the child and carring him some too. He learns from all we do not control it. He sees it all. We all should know it. He will pick the lessons he learns. We provide the backgroung, and experiences, and channel him through life, with love, and a path to follow too. He watches and learns about life, human emotion, and love too.

A Boy Far Away

The village it takes to keep the child, To teach and mentor not to be wild We love, protect, sometimes guide from far away Away from harms way and into our arms, No harm done to him, no harm today Watching so slightly he does not see Never suspecting that it was me I love him and respect him I must say, Willing to take a bullet, For his another day Being close, not intrusive, not revealing why Ready to catch him on the fly When he falls reaching a thrill too far away He touched but missed, it was far that one day Never talking of failure missing that day To try it again, some other day To assure him, reassure him and hold him Show strength, compassion, and believe his wishes his Desire to show me he really can He will then know he will and he can Reach it and get it but first He must be a man Knowledge of life, awe and desire It is the altitude of a man He could not as a child and can as a man So he can see all the beauty in another day To learn to see the beauty from an others' point or way We must keep his eyes focused in a way we cannot say To see it, enjoy it, we must show him, not say Do homework, feed the cat, don't you touch it. Be on time, you are fat, and others spoken, in manner just like that Do it my way, hit the highway, and risk loosing him someday Does not touch him, you must learn, you can't mentor him that way Telling it clearly and simply, needs and chores to be done Without showing only shouting, he might run someday He responded when ordered, the tasks reluctant done He the child rebelled, at age two, even back then, He is growing now. He is not Two. A little side note; now is not then To teach him to believe and behave we must try again We use kinder, gentler, loving parent and friend too No need to see him rebel once again Like again when he was two To see him grow into a man with character and charm We look to ourselves, our examples too We walk by his side talking and do no harm to The vision we create in him, the one to be a man Not to grow up being that same child everyday He is wants to talk, has something to say, It is important we know He is our child, our son he is everyday Not engaging, entertaining and playing some too No knowledge of whereabouts or Thoughts from that child, some grow up to be wild Growing in body, personality, ambitions The mind rows up without inhibitions Growing up our Son the successes, we see The son our child, raised by you and me We see the man he grew up be He is stronger, loving, and a bigger bugger too. He is funny at times and gentler to children We raised a child just like you. rw

Child's Play

There is the education we all receive from the child as well. Lessons from the heart teach both ways. We never stop learning from the start. Some may say we are too far apart, Only, if the lessons were not learned

Life is not school work it is human too That he can only learn from Me and You Two points of view, different ways we teach It does not matter, if we fail to reach The emotional child has feelings too, interest, and talent We see in him too. We guide him and provide him Love Me and You, his parents in Love from lessens we learned too. rw

Day at the Beach

Closed my eyes day at the beach Escaped true love, I found true peace Sun shining bright the breeze spoke too Fingers of breeze strolling right through Tickled bare thighs imagined being teased For only a moment in time, I thought it was you

Closed my eyes, day at the beach imagining little Chewing the candy some call peanut brittle On moist days or in the fall Little but Big He thinks too small Not sad No matter I'm not too busy for him I reach Come with me son I will continue to teach Not busy not sad he calls me dad He listens by sight words do not come easy Can't replace him you see, I'm not your real dad He listens to me; to my son I say Closed my eyes, day at the beach, imagine little Everything will be OK; you can sleep in the middle .... Sigh Closed my eyes, day at the beach Enjoying myself but missing some piece They were there I'm sure, not long ago, Image of her face, Beautiful face, all a glow The puzzle it has broken in so many riddles Not seeing them all listen to the fiddle Closed my eyes for only a moment Taken away tucked away for memories enjoyment Closed my eyes for just such a moment Not searching for answers in far off lands Enjoying the beach, warmth of the sand Child's hand in mine he places Found it by feelings and familiar faces So rare you see he came looking for me He found it by trust by his touch you see I reached to him and him to me By reach it started from I to him Hearts touching and talking so fresh so new I cry Knowing he is also reaching from Him to I Closed my eyes day at the beach Enjoying myself but missing a piece Not looking for life not seeing the riddle Found my peace ... I see him there Resting in piece by sleeping in the middle rw

I think comparing parental involvement in K-12 education and same in higher education is an apples and oranges thing. The parents of a K-12 student are coached to fight for their kids because in some schools that is the only way to get any meaningful feedback from the school. Since most K-12 students are minors, the parents also have a legal responsibility to make certain the students attend school, follow school rules, and make adequate progress. The parents are not taught how to gradually shift this responsibility to the student before he/she goes to college. The student doesn't learn how to take responsibility for his/her own education.

The local school mandates a specific homework planner book. The teachers stand over the students to make certain all assignments are written correctly in the book and parents have to regularly sign the book to show they are making certain the child is working on these assignments. NOWHERE is the student making a statement that he/she knows this work is his/her responsibility. Parents are taught to micromanage their child's education.

Some day these kids will become adults. Many will go to college. For the first time ever they will have to set an alarm each night and actually wake up to it each morning because no one else will force them to go to class. On the first day of class they will be handed a syllabus which lists everything they must do for the duration of the course. Also a new concept to most. Hmmm, does "recommended reading" mean it is just stuff that is helpful to know or will we be tested on it? The professor said we were supposed to research this subject and I found this great stuff in someone's blog so why did I get an F?

Parents are also frustrated because they are no longer entitled to automatically receive feedback from their (adult) child's educators. In fact students of age must give permission to the college before parents can receive a copy of grades. This is new to the parents since FERPA probably wasn't in effect when they attended college. Parents usually do not get to see the course syllabus or textbooks unless the student still lives at home and volunteers the material or the material is publicly available online. All of a sudden the parents feel they are completely kicked out of the education process--except for paying the bills. Then the first round of exams goes badly or midterm grade reports go out and the student whines to Mommy and Daddy. The parents are suddenly engaged in a conflict but they are armed only with the very biased and/or misunderstood information given by their child. The parents of a first-generation college student have an even bigger hurdle since they have no personal college experience to draw upon. The parents of special needs students or minority students or any other "special" case want to make certain discrimination isn't involved.

Given this, I d> Call me the local curmudgeon, but I think a lot of this

But do the teachers keep trying or do they just give up? No matter what a teacher is attempting to teach, some parent will say it is unreasonable. And, for very select students, it just might be. Some students can handle critical thinking and accept responsibility much earlier than others, yet in the standard classroom it has to be everyone or noone.

Insidious may be the correct term for isolated parents, but the word is too harsh across-the-board. The three months between high school graduation and college matriculation are insufficient for weaning parents apart from their children in the education process. Without assistance, some will never make it--just like students.

But you think telling a student "wow" is grading creativity, so I'm not sure you'll understand anything I try to say now.

Creativity occurs on so many levels, sometimes without thinking one can create a little sketch or a piece of music. It just seems to out fully realized. Other times it is a struggle to get something equally good out.

Would you then say that the sketch or song that came easily deserves less of a grade than the one that was worked for?

Gifted kids have both kinds of creativity occurring. Sometimes ideas come to them in a flash, other times they have to really put in some deep thought. Would you penalize a child with a poorer grade for either failing to have that flash, or for not having to work to the same end?

Creativity is also subjective, I may find an idea highly creative, while others may think it's the dumbest thing they've ever heard. Which of us should be grading the creativity?

Caryn

I didn't say it was. That is a misinterpretation (or even a misrepresentation) of our original discussion.

Agreed. But this wasn't the premise of your argument.

No, nor did I say anything remotely resembling that thought. I think my argument has been lost over the last several posts, so it really is senseless to keep this going. Both Ericka and Sue have added some really interesting insights on the ideals of grades, creativity, critical thinking, and education in general. I've thoroughly enjoyed the discourse.

Dianne

You miss my point. These weren't parents who were trying to be informed or trying to understand or trying to take responsibility. These were parents who were trying to get me to change a (well deserved) poor grade because they were quite sure their little darlings couldn't possibly have earned anything less than an A. This isn't just about learning to separate, and I'm sure they had been doing that all along the child's education. They were making these calls *long distance*, fer cryin' out loud. My point, however, was not so much to say that college and primary/secondary education are the same. I was just incredulous that such behavior was still going on at that level, and I am quite sure that it wasn't *new* behavior at the collegiate level. Those parents had been threatening teachers all along the way (and probably winning--fortunately, my dean was willing to back me).

Personally, I think that's because they try to introduce these things before kids are developmentally ready to take on these responsibilities. Kindergarteners can't schedule their time--they can't even tell time (most of them)! Yet they're getting homework and planners. They are actively *cultivating* dependence on parents for all this, in the name of "parental involvement." On the other hand, if they give the responsibility to the kids and the kids fall down on the job, guess who's knocking on the door demanding that a grade be changed? It's no wonder the teachers want the parents to sign off on the homework too.

Not these parents. They weren't having any trouble getting access to information. Their kids were whining to them to come fix the problem. Obviously, the parents were only hearing the child's side, but the problem was definitely not an information vacuum. Even when confronted with the evidence (grade book, copies of assignments, explanations of what was wrong and why, examples of acceptable work), they were not backing down one iota. They still believed their child should have an A in the course.

Oh, I would understand if they just wanted explanations. That wasn't what they were looking for. And these were well-educated parents. They just believed (probably because they'd been successful in the past) that I owed their child an A regardless of performance.

Best wishes, Ericka

Dianne Lewandowski , published in message.

snip

And that is a most sensible (and refreshing) finale. I was wondering just how long it would take for the lights to come on and the Troll ignored.

We're battling that now with DD, a high school senior. I'm no longer waking up until just a few minutes before she leaves, just to challenge her to get herself up and out independently. There's no "safety net" of mom rapping on her door every five minutes. (As I've done in the past.)

This morning her ride didn't show, and I told her, "Better get down to the bus stop on the corner. If he's driving by to pick you up, he'll see you there." This was already "late" for school by 5 min. It was hard NOT to say, "OK, I'll get dressed and drive you" and I felt guilty (mother's automatic response, right? ). And she didn't ask me to drive her - I think she expected me to say no and didn't want to be refused.

So she was late today, but hopefully learned a lesson. I wish school gave detentions still...I don't know if there are dire consequences for being late, as there were in the Dark Ages when I was in high school!

Sue

What exactly makes a child gifted? This is an honest question. Does the child make 100% marks in every subject? Would it be unusual to have two children of a 'gifted' nature? I can remember teachers wanting me to skip the 10th grade and go right into the 11th, but I didn't want to do that - my friends were all doing it the ordinary way. Wouldn't being with friends be as important as shoving kids ahead in grades? I'm not sure I understand this 'gifted' thing. Most kids need a little push to do well, but is this gifted thing shoving?

Sharon (N.B.) ................................................................

Some kids push themselves, or put themselves in positions where they get pushed by circumstances, almost by instinct. I don't think gifted programs should push kids, but rather should give them the ability to reach their potential. Some traditional programs can be limiting and the point is to allow those kids who want to, to reach beyond those limits.

Elizabeth