I just went to my 25 year high school reunion. I knew this quiet, unassuming kid in my classes. He was horrible in Math, English, History...you name it. He barely graduated. But he was brilliant in art. By age 20, he was doing hand-drawn animation that would make Walt Disney proud. He was THE success story of the reunion. He has worked for Disney, Fox, Dreamworks, and Pixar. He would not have qualified for the MGM (Mentally Gifted Minor) program I was in at my school. He's an example of how not all genius is discovered in the educational system.
Technically or practically? In theory, it's having abilities significantly beyond normal abilities in a particular area, say more than two standard deviations from the norm. People can be gifted in many different areas, whether typical academic areas or artistic pursuits or athletic pursuits or what have you. Practically speaking, most schools that test for GT programs are looking for IQs two or more standard deviations above the norm. Pull out programs are typically easier to get into than center based programs (because the resource requirements are fewer--I'm not making the argument that center based programs are better or kids in them are somehow better; just observing that the economics are such that they tend to be more generous with inclusion in the pullout programs), though some pullout programs are very exclusive. Lots of school systems give lip service to giftedness in non-academic areas, but few put that into practice.
While some schools use this as an indicator, most that have serious programs consider grades but it is not the case that all gifted kids will have straight A's. In fact, a significant discrepancy between achievement scores and ability scores is often an indication of a gifted child who really needs some support.
Not necessarily. Most people believe that there is a heritable component to IQ. Also, to the extent that nurture is a factor, children in the same family typically have access to similar resources and experiences. My experience here is that it's about evenly split whether a GT center child's siblings are also in the GT center or not.
That's one of the arguments against acceleration. Having above average intelligence doesn't always guarantee that a child will be more mature and able to fit in well socially with significantly older peers. On the other hand, many gifted kids don't fit in all that well with their age peers either. Sometimes radical acceleration is the only way to handle some extraordinarily gifted kids. Sometimes it's the only way to get the child challenged academically in some school systems. Often, one of the main arguments for having GT programs is to find a way to challenge gifted kids academically while maintaining a social environment that is more appropriate for them. But, as with anything else, not everyone fits that mold either.
No. There is a wealth of research on issues with gifted kids. A lot of people don't think they need any special help in school, because why would you spend money to help the kid who already "gets" it? But studies show that far too many of these kids fail to reach their potential, and greater than expected numbers actually fail pretty miserably in life. Providing these kids with appropriate educational support improves the odds that they will succeed in life and achieve to their potential. (Alas, not all GT programs are actually any good, but the good ones do tend to show beneficial outcomes.) Some will do just fine without additional support, but there are those for whom it makes a real difference. Putting a gifted kid in a GT program isn't just taking a kid of average intelligence and pushing them to achieve harder. It's meeting the educational needs of children who have different needs. There's a differnce between the child who works hard and the child who has a very different cognitive ability level. That's not to say that the gifted kid is *better*. In the real world, hard work trumps ability a lot of the time. It is, however, difficult to teach the gifted kid the value of hard work in a classroom where the child never has to break an intellectual sweat ;-) I do believe that with the appropriate teacher training and classroom structure, the majority of gifted kids can be appropriately educated and challenged in the regular classroom, but too few teachers are trained to do that, and too few classrooms are set up to encourage that sort of education.
My freshman roommate came in 6th in a graduating class of 10. I came in
6th in a graduating class of 350. Despite graduating in the bottom half of her class, she was actually more prepared for college than I was, because she had learned how to study.
I was accustomed to reading through all my textbooks, in their entirety, the first weekend, and then only doing homework when I knew it would be collected. I wasn't actually learning anything from the textbooks, other than gauging how far behind me the rest of the class was.
Lizzie was accustomed to sitting down at her desk the instant she came home from school, studying till dinner time, and then studying from after dinner until bedtime. She tried to enforce this schedule on me, but (a) I couldn't sit still that long, and (b) I had no idea what to do with myself for the next 3 hours after I'd finished reading the assigned chapters.
She tried to get me to use her technique, of making flash cards and going over and over them, but my classes weren't really appropriate to that. I wasn't really learning "vocabulary" -- I was a political science major and I already knew how to define a democracy, a monarchy, communism, etc. And unlike her biology textbook, I didn't have any pictures to paste on the flash cards.
Then the gal down the hall tried to teach me her method of studying, but that didn't work for me, either. Then the gal downstairs insisted that the only way to study was her way, but that didn't work for me, either.
By the time I finally figured out what study method worked for me, a couple years later, it was too late to salvage my GPA. It wasn't one that anyone had suggested, and when I told them about it, they said I was nuts. They hadn't heard of anyone else using that technique.
It would've been nice if in just ONE class in high school I had to work hard enough to learn what study skills work for me, instead of wasting most of my college career on trying methods that didn't work.
PBS this week (check your local listings) "Making Schools Work". "This program focuses on educational success stories, highlighting the school reform models and district-wide reforms that have significantly raised student performance and closed achievement gaps for minority and poor students."
Parents blame teachers, it's a long standing problem. Even 30 yrs ago, when my dad (Grade 9 math teacher) would call the parents to say their child was falling behind on homework, or not doing well in class, the parents would demand he fix things. They couldn't get that it was little Johnny/Janie who needed to fix their own behavior.
My kids' school system has a wonderful thing, it's called Edulink and I can get online and see my kids grades, homework completions, etc.
I do require an hour of homework at the kitchen table after school each night, but it's good to be able to quietly check up on things too. We had a little problem with oldest not doing homework a couple years ago, so it's nice that I can check up and make sure she hasn't started that up again! lol
I think it's always gone on to some degree, but my perception is that it is much more prevalent now than in the past, both in frequency and degree.
We have some similar things available. Fortunately, it hasn't been a problem with us to get information, and we've almost always been notified by a teacher if there is *any* incipient problem brewing (which is very nice).
That it is! It's good that teachers can now email parents to get them involved. I'm sure that the teachers appreciate any parent who steps up and gets the child back on the right path as well!
I could only hope that one would. After speaking with her, I finally figured out that the problem was 40% DS, 60% her. If the "A" students need more time to finish the "project", what chance does the "C" student have.
Most teachers I've talked to *love* email. I get much faster responses with email than with phone messages. I think it's great. Our principal and corporate partner have been great about getting computers, internet connectivity, and training to families who don't have them as well.
Very good explanations Ericka - I appreciate your thoughts. I'm just wondering if we do more harm pushing kids to such limits than just letting them go the usual routine with the so-called normal kids - do they get swelled heads - do they treat their friends in a normal fashion, do they feel they're superior - I just don't know ... and if they think they are the end all of being all, can they possibly develop good friends thinking that they are superior?
I have trouble explaining it, to be honest. Two of my three are considered gifted, but all three make good grades (honor's roll).
The two gifted ones just have an extra spark. They have a wit, amazing senses of humor. They seem to always be thinking, and express things in ways that seem almost impossible for kids so young. The middle one, while very smart, just doesn't have that same creativity, the same thought process. She has a sense of humor, it's just different.
No help was I? But as I understand it, gifted kids just think differently. They don't even always get great grades, they just process things in a different way.
Because so much of this has centered on my child, I want to be clear about one thing.
I never pushed her to be "gifted" she just is. Her teachers noticed it when she was still in 1st grade, I got a thick batch of papers to fill out to authorize them to test her, asking questions about specific examples in her life, stuff like that. The forms were a royal PITA to be honest! But, as a mom, I didn't want to deny her the chance to participate in something that would benefit her. It would be like saying a child with special needs shouldn't be allowed to have classes to help him/her do better in life too.
Wee one (I know, at 9 yrs old, she's getting too big for that label, but she's my wee one nonetheless) will be better off for having this push, this extra education to develope her ability to think rather than merely learn.
Dude and I wonder what our lives would have been like if we'd had the same opportunities. Certainly we have the IQs, but were we gifted as kids? Hard to say anymore! (Dude irks me, I've got a decently high IQ, but he still beats mine! rofl)
Well then there you go - you state your middle child has a sense of humour - the others don't? So would not this child be 'gifted' with a sense of humour? That's not a bad thing. :-))
Sure, some of them think they're superior. And some kids think they're superior because they're star athletes, and some think they're superior because they're beautiful, and some think they're superior because they have lots of friends, and some think they're superior because they're rich. There are snobs in every walk of life, and gifted kids aren't immune. But my experience is that few of them are that way (and those that are often have the sort of parents you'd expect to be promoting that sort of attitude). You also have to understand that these kids aren't being pushed any more than normal kids are in a normal classroom. Some of them do have problems relating to normal kids, but that's because they don't *understand* them, not because they think they're superior. Many gifted kids would love nothing more than to figure out how on earth to relate to all those normal kids. Some are so desperate and feel so isolated that they slip into depression.
Who's constantly repeating to a kid that he or she is gifted? Sure, there are some idiot parents who do stuff like that, but that's a minority. You're also assuming that these kids develop better socially when mainstreamed. That is most certainly not in evidence. What do you think goes on all day in these programs?! Do you think their teachers and peers sit around all day inflating their egos? In any decent program, they're in there working their little butts off like any other student ought to be. Think of it this way. If you knew a child who was a gifted athlete, would you say that the parents shouldn't allow him or her to progress to more advanced levels of training just so that he or she would appear to be the same as everyone else and not get a swelled head over his or her expertise? And do you really think that would work? Do you really think the other kids on the team would think the athletically gifted kid was just like them? Do you really think there would be no pressure on that kid to "carry the team?" Do you really think that it does the kid a service to refuse to allow the training that would challenge his or her skills and allow him or her to reach potential? Do you think that the gifted athlete who *does* pursue more advanced training is necessarily stuck up or pushed? Sure, there are pushy sports parents, but sometimes it's just a kid with ability and passion. It's the same with those who are intellectually gifted. I agree with you that this shouldn't be about pushy parents, and there *are* some pushy parents out there. I see them every year when they have the annual orientation meetings for people going through the process of applying for the program. They're upset their kid didn't get in last year, and they're sure it was a bad decision, and look how good their kid's grades are, and their kid better get in or else. Those kids are in a terrible situation because of their parents' attitudes. They *are* likely to feel pressured and stressed and never good enough. But the program isn't for kids who are hard workers or who get good grades or whose parents want "the best" or anything like that. The good gifted programs are there to meet the needs of kids who aren't being served adequately in the regular classroom. The kid who works hard, studies, and gets good grades in the regular classroom is a *success*. The kid who is bored to tears, disrupts the class, gets turned off of learning, never learns to work, starts dropping grades because he just doesn't care anymore, or worse yet, is NOT being served in the regular classroom.
Of course you shouldn't push your daughter into anything. But you know, either she's gifted or she's not. You don't get to decide that. All you get to decide is what, among the options available to you, best meets her educational needs. If she is intellectually gifted, there will still be a lot of other factors that will go into the decision. How mature is she? What other learning characteristics does she have (intellectually gifted kids have higher incidences of other learning disabilities, which can complicate the equation immensely)? What does *she* want? Is she motivated? What sort of programs are available in your area? How well trained are the teachers? How will she be affected socially, for better or worse? You can only address these issues in the context of a particular individual and a particular set of options. I'm not sure why you would think that gifted kids wouldn't be a challenge, or wouldn't be demanding, or wouldn't swear, unless you're still equating giftedness with some idea of perfection. Of *course* there are challenges with gifted kids. They can be a very challenging group of kids to teach, and not just because they're stuck up brats. Having a GT program is not about "skimming the cream," as some allege. It's about nothing more and nothing less than meeting the needs of children--or at least that's what it *should* be about. As I've said elsewhere, there are lousy programs out there, and some of them are absolutely reprehensible and, I believe, damaging to the community and the kids in the program. But there are good programs out there too, and some that are well-intentioned but largely neutral.
But they're not. In fact, many of them *don't* do well at school at all, which is why they need some support. One of my kid's grades were getting steadily *worse* until he was put into a gifted program. And it's not that they just learn faster.
Reread it, I said the gifted ones had amazing senses of humor, but that the one the middle one has is different.
The gifted two seem to get things, the subtle nuances, that go by the middle one sometimes.
Lest you think middle one is left out, she has a group of really good kids for friends, she's my stitcher, so we hit yarn and fabric/lns together and of the three she is definitely the one who has the eyes of boys following her! lol
Very informative Ericka - all your information has given me a greater understanding of this subject in a clear and straight-forward manner. It's nice to be able to ask a question on this group - or get a discussion going - on certain subjects and have someone actually discuss it without jumping down someone's throat. Thanks for that.
Shar> > Very good explanations Ericka - I appreciate your thoughts. I'm just
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