Personally, I think that has little to do with it. I think it has a lot more to do with the disappearance or shortening of recess, and perhaps the unavailability of ropes during recess at school. Even when I was young, most of the rope skipping happened at school during recess. And as far as pickup ball games go, as far as I can tell, if there's a group of kids outside near appropriate facilities, they'll likely as not play a game. However, it's not all that common for there to be enough kids outside near appropriate facilities for pickup games to happen. People often turn to leagues *because* it's the only way for kids to be able to play frequently. And as for why there aren't tons of kids out playing, look to issues of safety (perceived or real), amount of homework (often an hour or more per night in elementary school, and more later), working parents (kids in afterschool care), etc. It's easy to blame parents for all this stuff, but a lot of it is just life today and beyond the ability of individual parents to do a whole lot about it.
I'll second this. I was shocked to discover the local elementary school only has one recess per day (at lunch). We had three per day until fifth grade--two fifteen minute recesses (mid-morning and mid-afternoon) and a half-hour at lunch--and just the lunch recess from fifth through eighth grade. That is, unless you were being punished for something which meant losing one of the short recesses. Of course by eliminating that extra half-hour of recess, students are in school for a shorter time so the teachers have more "planning time" and the students have more out-of-school activity time. The school here runs from 9am-3:30pm. When I was a kid we had school from 8:30am-3:30pm (except for when I took German at 7:30am in high school because it was taught by an instructor from another district) so we had the extra recess time in the early grades and more time to move between classes in the later grades. Kindergarten was only half-day then instead of full-day/every-day like now. Kids who move from class to class now have to carry all their books in a backpack all day because there isn't time to go to their lockers between classes. And it is mostly because the teachers don't want to take work home or work beyond 4pm. That's pathetic.
Yes, I know *some* teachers do work longer hours (not including coaching/extra-curricular duties), but the teaching union's move to cut the school day short was because they don't have enough "planning time" and don't feel they should have to take work home or work a longer day. Never mind that most degreed professionals work an 8-5 day (albeit with the possibility of a longer lunch) and don't have a dedicated quiet "planning time" within the day or all the extra holidays and "in-service" days. Many of these other professionals work extra hours and take work home too. Some are even paid worse than teachers and very few have the option of having a union bully their employer for a raise or better benefits or reduced hours.
And a couple more thoughts: Schools cut recess time, elim> Personally, I think that has little to do with it.
Wow. Did you ever stop to consider the huge increase in things we know since you were in school? How about the things we teachers are required by law to teach? This wasn't the case when you were in school I bet. I seriously doubt that the move for a longer school day is to keep teachers from having to take any work home. I don't know a single teacher who got into the job knowing they would have a whole lot of free time because they'd only have to work at school as long as they bitched enough. Many teachers spend their hour planning period making up lessons for the next day, but this isn't enough time to prepare for all the classes the teacher must teach. Many teachers spend their planning period monitoring a detention room, making phone calls to parents, etc. Almost all the teacher I had in high school were more than willing to give up their planning period to help any student who was struggling in class. You claim that teachers don't want to do any more work than what they can cram inside a school day(unless they're a coach or band director apparently) but what about all the wonderful teachers who stay after school to help students with schoolwork, stay after school to help with the science club, stay after school to prepare their room, stay after school to meet with parents, etc. etc. Oh, I did I mention these people don't get paid any more than teachers who don't do these things? And many states do not have a teacher's union to help them out yet their teachers are highly paid compared to some union states. Sure, "most degreed professionals" work and 8-4 or 9-5 job and have an hour lunch break. No, they don't have a planning period because it a totally different type of work to sit in an office and work on projects all day than it is to teach a very diverse group of 100 kids per day, write lessons for each class, modify those lessons to fit each and every special needs student(since that's a legal requirement, too), tutor those students who need extra help, maintain contact with parents, and all the other things that go with being a good teacher. Even if you're a mediocre teacher, it'll still take more than that "quiet" hour to come up with any sort of lesson plan for each class and eat a doughnut(since you seem to think that's what teachers do). As for extra holidays, which ones do teachers get that office workers don't? We get all the national holidays that office works do, plus a winter and spring recess. Some schools get an extra day or two at Thanksgiving. Yes, teachers get the whole summer off, but if you want to gripe about no play time, then I imagine you'd raise the roof over no summer break. And teachers do NOT get paid at all over the summer. Yes, you can have your salary divided into 24 check but all that does is make your regular checks smaller, spreads out the money. Many teachers must take an extra job over the summer to support their families. Oh, and teachers usually have to buy a lot of the instructional supplies they use in the classroom with their own money. As for inservice days, office workers have staff meetings too; they also have all day to get up from their desk and leave whatever project they're working on to consult with a colleague. Teachers spend their day in a classroom working with students since that's their job. We don't get to leave our students whenever we want and wander down the hall to ask Mr. Smith what he'd do in this situation. But I guess we could add that to our quiet hour if Mr. Smith and the principal both happen to be free at the same time... There are also the administrative duties to be attended to: are the students following the rules; do the rules seem flawed; have teachers noticed any "hot spots" for trouble in the building; do we see any evidence of a substance abuse problem in our school; how can we get higher attendance; how does the new county-wide policy affect us as teachers; how can we help more students find careers; do all the other teachers have the same problem with Tommy, maybe we should see if he needs assistance; the list goes on. Then there are the teachers, schools, districts, and states who use those days, or part of those days, to hold a workshop to help us become better teachers by giving us fresh ideas and new methods. Finally, I'll agree with you that young kids should get more breaks. I don't believe nearly as many children are ADD as we define them, they're just being kids. But when the state/federal government mandates that a whole load of things be taught, it gets harder and harder every year to allow time out of work. Creative teachers will use other methods such as teachign activities that involve moving around or group work or stations. As for junk food, finally they're starting to outlaw machines in schools. But there'd be plenty of parents who will complain that their kid has the right to buy whatever he wants, or he can only afford snack food instead of a full lunch. Still, I think you are dead wrong to try to place all the blame on teachers and schools. There are a lot of factors at work here yet you choose to pick out a single item to pick on. You mention when you went to school there was recess, no junk food, more free time between classes, etc. Remember that when you were in school the federal government had little say in education, it's only recently that they've stepped in. Yes, there are some bad teachers out there. But there are also many many wonderful teachers who are doing the best they can with the resources they have. We are in fact "degreed professionals," many of us with masters degrees or better and could have spent our time in school studying something that would pay us much more for our masters degree. Instead we chose to do what we love, what we think will have the most benefit, what we feel can inspire a new generation: teach our children. Sincerely, Sara L.
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I really hate to sound like an old geezer but this time I must. Back in the olden days when I was young, elementary school was from 8:30 in the morning till 3:00 in the afternoon. We had 1/2 hour every week in what they laughingly called a gym, which was a room with a couple of balls and circles painted on the floor so we could make a neat circle when we danced or played dodge ball.
Recess didn't exist during the day and if we wanted to play in the schoolyard, it had to be after school.
Lunch was something we went home for, so what you ate depended on what your mother gave you. In my case it was a sandwich left on the kitchen table by my working full time mother. I guess now they would call me a latchkey kid because I wore the housekey on a chain around my neck. I survived.
Homework was done every night at the kitchen table and took no less than 45 minutes, even in the lower grades.
We did have classes like library sciences and music appreciation and I think they thought of those as fun things because they weren't academic subjects.
Except for the long bus rides some of the kids are made to take nowadays, I don't really think school is harder. From what I can tell, it's easier and here in Florida, the standards are definitely lower.
And lest anyone ask--no, I didn't walk ten miles in the snow, uphill each way, but on a cold winter day the few blocks I did walk felt like that kind of trip. No one seemed to think we deserved a ride and everyone walked.
Junior High School and High School meant public transportation, or feet to get there and who had time to go to a locker between classes. Lunch was the sandwich we brought from home or the horrid goop they served. Nutrition wasn't anything the school was particularly concerned with, except for what we were taught in hygiene class. We schlepped our books and things and didn't know we had reason to complain.
I don't know where you live Sara, but here in Florida the teachers absolutely do not have more to teach than they did back in New York when I was young. Some different things perhaps, but not more things. I can only speak for this area but I think we were far better educated than the students are here. It seem to me that most of the time in the classroom is spent in teaching the kids how to take and pass a test, rather than actually learning something they might need to get a job or just get along in this world. I don't know whether that's the fault of the teachers, or the parents, or the administration, but I do think it's a fact of life.
The kids have no clue about geography, they can't do simple math without a calculator to help them, can't read or write very well unless they've been coached so they can pass the test, and generally do not get a well rounded education. Yes, they mostly do know how to use a computer and copy word for word for all their written work.
That doesn't go for every student, or for every school, but it does fit too many to make me feel education is good nowadays.
Lucille, I meant more as in terms of science most obviously. Other areas are constantly updated: for example history is often updated to include more points of view instead of just the old "history is written by the winners." As far as testing goes, now that we are required to have standardized tests, which I don't feel are a good indicator of learning, yes we have to teach kids to take tests to meet those standards. Just because a child can do lots of things doesn't mean they can take a test well and since the government basically judges based on test scores rather than another way of determining knowledge, we pretty much are forced to teach kids how to take the test. Another new thing to teach I guess.
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Lucille, I meant more as in terms of science most obviously. Other areas are constantly updated: for example history is often updated to include more points of view instead of just the old "history is written by the winners." As far as testing goes, now that we are required to have standardized tests, which I don't feel are a good indicator of learning, yes we have to teach kids to take tests to meet those standards. Just because a child can do lots of things doesn't mean they can take a test well and since the government basically judges based on test scores rather than another way of determining knowledge, we pretty much are forced to teach kids how to take the test. Another new thing to teach I guess.
First of all, I'm only in my 30's. I also worked on a teaching degree in the early 90's so I'm aware of the requirements that were in place at that time. I don't know that there have been that many mandated changes since then.
As for the change in the length of the school day and the reasons behind it--I'm going with what I've seen printed in the newspapers when contract negotiations occur. Not all teachers spend their planning time the way you say either. There are actually schools (especially at the elementary level) that don't have a detention room or make teachers take a turn monitoring study hall. I also personally know teachers who have used the same textbook for over a decade and I know that other than preparing the personal lesson plans required for special students (assuming they have any) they do little more than change the dates on their lesson plans from one year to the next.
Wonderful teachers who stay after school to help students? Few and far between around here. Most of them want to leave no more than ten minutes after the students leave because they need to go pick up their own kids from school. Those same teachers also will not come in early for basically the same reason. People in other careers have to find child care for the gap between the beginning/end of the work day and the beginning/end of the school day so why do teachers think they shouldn't have to do the same? I don't know where you got the donut thing...I grew up in a town without a donut shop so I'm rather certain my teachers didn't sit around eating donuts. If they do now, I won't fault them for it since teachers have to pay more than students for their meals but still are served the same portions as the grade level they teach which isn't much for lower elementary. I know they also don't get enough time to eat lunch and don't have the option of eating while working in the classroom.
The ideal teacher would do all the things you mention. Too many teachers are far from ideal. What they do is, given their supposed education and experience, no harder than what any other professional does for a living yet I've heard a lot of whining from that sector lately. Perhaps that is just a regional thing. As for the holidays, my daughter's school calendar has two holidays off in October. I've never worked anywhere that had a holiday off in October. And that's just one representative month--there are plenty more. As for summer, teachers know going into the profession that they won't get paid for summer unless they teach summer school or find other work. They have no room to complain about that. FWIW, I'm not against summer school because of lack of play time. School buildings without air conditioning reach unsafe temperatures for children (and staff) during the summer. If the school has a/c, I'm all for summer school with just a couple of weeks off for vacation. It would help a lot of children who basically have to spend the first 2-4 weeks each fall relearning last year's material because they didn't do any work for 2.5-3 months over summer. It would also mean some children in poverty would continue to receive free lunches for those months when they might have to go without at home all summer.
At least teachers get to deduct what they spend for classroom supplies on their tax return. Families are now given a full-page list of stuff to buy (per student) and NONE of it is allowed to have your child's name on it since it is all for the use of the entire class. And there are mandatory book fees, health fees, and activity fees on top of that. There are also mandatory uniforms at some schools--public and private. Families should get to take a deduction too.
The junk food machines during the day need to go. If that is what parents want their kids to eat for lunch, they can pack a lunch for them. Hot lunch (full price) at our school is $2/day and the school pushes everyone to apply for free/reduced meals. That wouldn't buy much in a vending machine. If schools want them around to make extra money during ball games or such, fine; they can be shut off during the school day as ours were. Of course most of the fund-raising stuff we did involved selling candy or other junk food so I suppose that would have to go also or at least not be allowed during the school day.
I d> Wow. Did you ever stop to consider the huge increase in things we know
I think it varies considerably from region to region. My kids are working their little butts off and their teachers have high expectations. I don't mind them working hard at all, but I *do* question the value of the amount of homework they tend to have, especially since studies haven't shown much of any value for excessive homework in early elementary school. It would be one thing if they were in school for shorter hours, but they're in for longer hours than you describe, leaving us with only about 4 hours from when they get home until it's time for them to get ready for bed. A couple hours of homework is just incompatible with having dinner and doing pretty much *anything* else (whether that be playing, an activity, getting some exercise, a family event, doing some chores, or even just making a run to the grocery store).
Assuming that they have enough deductions to be bothered itemizing, they get to deduct. But a large number of people are unable to take advantage of itemized deductions.
Are you sure? I'll bet if you could find the state curriculum requirements, you'd find that they're being required to address a whole bunch of topics your teachers never had to deal with. I suspect your teachers also didn't have to deal with developing lessons to meet the needs of any special ed students. Did you ever have to study the history and culture of Mali in elementary school? My kids do, because it's on the state mandated curriculum.
It's the fault of *VOTERS* who keep voting people into office who think that high stakes accountability testing is the way to ensure a "quality" education.
On what do you base that information? While I will certainly agree that there are problems in education in many places, and Floriday has more than its fair share, lots of people also make a bunch of assumptions based on scuttlebutt they've heard here or there, and those assumptions are not always correct.
There was a very interesting study several years back that found that if you ask people about the state of education overall in the US, they said it was terrible. If you asked about education in their state, they said it was not so hot. If you asked about education in their county, it was pretty decent. If you asked about the school their kids were currently in, they thought it was quite good. People are often willing to believe a lot of bad things until they actually experience evidence to the contrary. Mind you, I think the high stakes testing is quite damaging to our educational system (thanks, No Child Left Behind) and so I think there are some serious problems that need dealing with. I just think that a lot of folks who carp about education don't have a lot of direct experience with it. I think our (public) school system is quite good, and my kids are getting a very good education there--including writing and reading and geography and history and math and science and goodness knows what else.
I have read at least parts of such studies and have understood that it meant that communities *believe* their schools are superior while everyone elses is bad. It's not from actual knowledge of how their local school is faring in the grand scheme of things. Most people in this country know that the education system overall is lacking . . . everywhere but their local school.
I'm know for sure that in the 60's teachers absolutely did did have to deal with the needs of special ed students. I'm not going to say that for the
40's when I went to elementary school because I'm not sure, but there were students who were brought into my class where we tutored them and I guess that was a special situation for kids who needed help.
As far as the history and culture of Mali, there too I don't remember learning that, but I do know that I could find Mali on a map and I did have to study the history and culture of American Indians. Does that count ??
I agree that things change as history changes, but I doubt the teachers work harder now and I know my many teacher friends will agree with me. Teaching has never been know to be an easy thing to do, provided it's done correctly.
We agree on this one. The voters don't always do the right thing.
I tried to make it clear that I am speaking for St. Lucie County in Florida. That's where I live and that's where I do know something about what's going on in the schools. The test scores are abominable and the kids are not being educated to the standards I would like to see. All I know is if the computerized cash register doesn't work I'm told that they can't do the transaction. Somone is failing somewhere when there are 18 year olds working as wait staff who can't add up a check and give you a final total. The excuse I've been given, more than once, is that the computer is down. Does that mean I can't pay my bill???
I have a very close friend who teaches in the high school right down the road from where we live. She has kids in her senior classes that can't read or write, but they will graduate in May. When I innocently asked why if they couldn't keep up with the scholastic work they weren't put into some kind of vocational classes, the answer was everyone has to take these classes and there just isn't room or money for vocational studies. So you put a kid on the street who's prepared for absolutely nothing at all. What does he/she do with the rest of his life?
If you're lucky enough, or smart enough to have planned in advance, to live in a school district with good teaching, that's great. I know such places exist. Unfortunately, here in South Florida a lot of the young people I know are struggling to send their kids to parochial schools or private schools to insure a better education. I think that's sad.
The study I saw was asking parents with children currently involved in the public school system, so the respondents *did* have actual experience. I find that my personal experience is also consistent. For example, when I talk to folks about how good the local high school is, those who do *not* have kids there think it's awful. Those who *do* have kids there say that, hey, their kid is getting a pretty darned good education there. That's not to say that they're blind to any issues that might be going on. They can tell you what the school's strengths and weaknesses are, and nothing is perfect. However, judging by the large number of students who are managing to go on to top notch universities (and succeed), it's hard for me to figure how this school is so horrible. Actually, it's not so hard to figure out. It's a lot of white flight. It's a lot of assuming that just because there is a significant proportion of non-white folk there, the school must not be good enough for their kids. I'm not suggesting that's the explanation for everyone's negative assessment of every school system. There are lots of reasons who someone might think there are problems, some legitimate and some not. But I find in general that people are awfully quick to believe the worst of situations they don't have personal experience of.
In the 40s, there were not the laws on the books requiring the kind of accommodation of special ed students that is required today (at great expense and effort, not that I'm suggesting that money and effort shouldn't be spent).
My point is that there are many things in curriculum strands today that were not covered years ago. I suspect it's unlikely you covered multi base arithmetic in elementary school. My kids started that by first or second grade. One can argue about whether they should or shouldn't be covering that material at that stage, but I think if you look at the list of what is supposed to be covered now vs. then, there are substantial differences, with more items on the list today.
I don't know any teachers who don't work hard. I'm sure some exist, but I sure as heck haven't met them.
But can they not complete the transaction because they can't figure the correct totals and change, or is it because the cash register system is tied into the inventory system and their suppliers' systems and so forth and if they processed transactions by hand, their just in time inventory system wouldn't be ordering replacements at the right time?
Obviously that's a problem, and as I mentioned before, Florida certainly has some problems with its educational system. (Well, all areas have some problems; Florida just seems to have more than its share.) I would be very curious about these students who are graduating without being able to read, though. How did they pass the FCAT?
Sure. Every child should be able to get a good education in public schools, and there are areas where that is not the case. On the other hand, blaming the situation on lazy teachers is precisely the thinking that has lead to all this high stakes testing. The theory is that if we just hold the teachers accountable for the poor performance of the children, all these lazy, poorly prepared teachers will step up to the plate or get fired and All Will Be Well. But ya know, it doesn't seem to be working out that way. Oddly enough, most who take a careful look at these problems find that there are *structural* barriers to achievement--boneheaded decisons to fail to provide needed funding or other resources or to impose unreasonable accountability regimes that get in the way of meeting students' needs or what have you. Sure, there are some crappy teachers out there. But there are a lot of other problems that I suspect are a much bigger part of the problem, so I don't see the value in declaring lazy, ignorant teachers to be the Problem with Education Today.
Beats me. Most teachers I know *do* have child care, including all the teachers with children that my children have had.
Perhaps it is. Perhaps there is something about your region that causes teachers to be less satisfied with their professional situation than in other areas?
Yeah, we have those too--for the students. The
*teachers* are working those days.
Um...there's a federal holiday in October--Columbus Day. Both I and my husband get that day off, as do most people I know.
Allowing teachers (or even parents) to deduct the cost of school supplies is a poor substitute for schools being funded enough to provide necessary books and supplies.
I've worked in places that didn't give it off. Or gave the staff our choice, we could have Columbus OR Veterans' Day, but not both.
I worked most of my career in law firms, and with one exception, there were several days every year when the courthouse was closed, but we were expected to work. If we didn't have any black employees, we didn't get Martin Luther King Day off.
At one place, we got New Year (only because half the staff would be too hungover), Presidents Day in February, Memorial Day in May, 4th of July, Labor Day in September, Thanksgiving in November, and Christmas. If any of those holidays fell on a weekend, too bad, you didn't get a Monday off to make up for it, so many years, we only got 6 days off. The government offices we dealt with, meanwhile, also got MLK, both Lincoln
*and* Washington, half a day Good Friday, Cesar Chavez Day, Columbus, Veterans' Day, and a couple others that I can't think of off-hand.
I said before, I have no idea about the 40's, but I do know about the 60's and yes--there were special needs classes and/or special needs kids who were mainstreamed. It did take a lot of work to keep these kids in school, but it was done and as usual, some of the teachers were wonderful and really tried to work with the kids and others were la-de-da and not terribly good. But I suppose that's true of any profession and more people who took on that kind of responsibility were good than bad.
I'm not going to argue with you on that point . Obviously your kids are in advanced classes, in a good school system and I'm glad for you. But I'm really not sure you're right about there being more things covered. Perhaps different things are being covered, but I'm not sure it should be called more. Your kids are learning multi base aritmetic and we were taught what was called new math which was different from that learned by our parents. That what I call progress. Whether it's harder or not, I'm no expert, but I don't know why you think there's more now then there was then. Different wars are being covered, but they're still wars. We were excited about new discoveries like Columbus discovering America, your kids are excited about going to the moon. Still a classroom subject--different information but still needing time to cover the subject. Harder to learn, maybe. I don't know the answer to that but I'm sure someone here can give a more educated opinion on that.
On this point we agree. Hooray!!
My problem as a consumer is not that of the inventory system or anything of that sort. I know when I worked in an office, if necessary we took notes by hand, with a pencil and paper. Does anyone other than me remember how a pencil works? Then, when things were back to normal and everything was working properly, we transcribed those notes into whatever form was needed. It makes little sense to me to think that no one could get me out of that resturant in a timely fashion because machines went wacky.
Who said they passed the FCAT. A lot of these kids will graduate because they reach the age where they have to go, or the school wants so badly to get rid of them that they push them through the system.
Who said all the teachers stink. It certainly wasn't me. I think there are a lot of good teachers out there. I can't say the same for the people who are in charge.
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