Copyrighting

Why not show someone what you're working on - re: the pattern. Or the finished piece, and if they like it then can buy it.

When people swap patterns that they've used, then the recipient is certainly not paying the originator of the pattern for their work. And sure, maybe there is some benefit but OTOH, if they do the one and feel that's enough of that designer, then they are not buying anything from the designer. The converse is that seeing patterns illegally wrt copyright on places like eBay doesn't do much beneficial advertising, what it does is promote blackmarket sources for the charts.

The profit margins aren't huge for designers, and the issue of people swapping, reselling used charts, etc. has indeed contributed to the rise in prices of charts.

There are lots of designers out there - but people can also look legitimately at work on tons of web sites, and through stitch groups, guilds, shops, etc.

Just my thoughts, as well.

ellice

What about pattern books from the library? I can swap and sell any pattern that I buy, I didn't rent the pattern, I own the pattern. Heck, I can even throw it away if I want to. I'm not talking a copy of the pattern, I'm talking the paper and/or book that the pattern came on. Using this type of logic .... you could never buy anything used.

I think we should see how it works with books Reading books !!! and Music discs] If i Buy a book i can read it as many times as i want ,,,,, If a librrary owns a book , [atleast here in israel] at the end of the year a counting of all Lendings are counted and Writer gets a few agorot [pennies] for each lending. Musical discs , i can play the ones i BOUGHT as many times as i like in my HOUSE ,,,,even 24 hours a day every day of the week. If the radio Plays it , at the end of the year the Writer and the players get some agorot for everytime it was played on the Radio ... Thus if i Buy a pattern i can sew or embroider from it as many times as i want for ME ,,,,,,my house , mirjam

Okay, considering copyrighting and only being able to use one time, what about stores selling music, books, etc. that people buy to give as gifts. Do they have to ask authors, song writers, etc. if they can sell the items, then do we have to contact these same people and ask them if we can give these items as gifts? I mean really, does this make sense to you all? Clothes that you buy in the stores, isn't there a great big building sitting somewhere that has the pattern that makes them? Pleaseeeeeeeeeeee, I am not going to call Levi Straus and ask them if I can give a pair of jeans to someone else. Everything made is made by someone, if we all asked every other person about everything we buy, sell, or give away, then we wouldn't be able to sit in front of our computers and read some of the really stupid stuff. Me, myself, I have more fun reading some of these posts, than I would have spending so many hours on the phone, trying to track down and talk to so many people. I'm sure they have better things to do also, like make more stuff for us. BettyJ

OH, I forgot something... I guess I have broken the law again, I gave clothes, blankets,etc, to the homeless shelter without permission. I am soooo bad..

As has been discussed many times over several years here, and I'm sure elsewheres - the copyright laws are different with regard to books versus art, designs. Consumer goods such as clothes and blankets are designed for multiple use. You're clearly for the point of absurdity trying to compare apples with oranges. The copyright - so to speak - of a blanket - would be regarding any patent on the way it is manufactured. A copyright might exist on a specific pattern of the fabric - but the end use would permit keeping on using it and donations. What it wouldn't permit is you copying the actual print or weave - say it was a specialty fabric.

There is a difference between copyright and trademark - which protects a business name, logo, and patents. Selling a bag that looks similar to a Gucci bag - but isn't made by them and will have some differences - is a crime. The big black market in knock-offs or counterfeits. If you sell it with some subtle differences and say it's Goocee not Gucci - fine - so someone is buying a knock-off. Though those sometimes do go into infringement. If you sell a copy as Gucci - then you're violating their trademark and copyright protection.

XS charts, as example, are original art of the designer - who is giving you a license to reproduce their copyrighted design when you purchase the chart. You do not have the right to resell that license once you have used it - it is a one time use license. Think of it kind of as a ride ticket at some carnival. You buy a ticket, you get on the ride, you take the ride. When you get off - you cannot sell the ticket to someone else for the ride. But, if you didn't get on the ride you could give it away, or sell it for the same price (to not be scalping). As Ericka pointed out, most designers don't care if you use a chart a few times for yourself. But, why would you think it's all right to interfere in the way someone makes a living because it saves you some money? Would any of us like that to be done with our jobs? If you're a programmer that works as an independent consultant and write some great code that does something specific for your client, and the client says great when I'm done redoing my inventory for example with your great code, I'll just sell it to my buddy that owns the store down the street - would that seem right? You have intellectual property rights that can be specifically assigned. But, now someone else is re-selling them.

Or even in the mundane - I plan events part time. They're usually pretty large events on the social scale. I do special, custom decorations for some of these. It takes time, effort and creativity, and lots of working with a client to come up with what I think they'll love, and will capture their desires. I've been to an event held by someone at one that I did, and imagine my surprise to see a poor quality imitation of what I had done at their event. So, they've taken my idea, copied it - badly, and to some extent taken a bite of my livelihood. Not unexpected to some extent.

We all have different ways of making a living. Most of us wouldn't shoplift. So, why do people want to justify stealing from an artist? You don't photocopy posters or prints that you buy - it's easy to understand the licensing on that. But, needlework charts, quilt pattern block kits, essentially fall into that same category of original art which you are given license to reproduce in a specific medium.

Honestly, WRT sewing patterns, I am not sure that Dianne is exactly correct. We were talking about this at some sewing seminar last year. There are some patterns which I have, and know the designer, are specifically intended for multiple use. The garment industry doesn't care if you sew a dress 3 times. They do care if you're sewing it and selling it commercially multiple times. In doing the custom sewing for some of my friends, we've established that they must provide (pay for) the pattern to be used, unless it's my original pattern - which is paid for and I can use as many times as I want. But the spirit of the law is the same - you're not supposed to use most commercial patterns for multiple people.

ellice

Isn't that just what I said? Multiple use for sewing patterns as long as it's for your own use. In fact, about 20 years ago, if I remember correctly, I called a pattern manufacturer (Vogue?) to ask about this.

So, is the law different for sewing patterns (which are copyrighted) and embroidery patterns? I know that for some embroidery transfers, they are specifically made to have more than one use. Why is a counted cross stitch chart any different?

Also, if I have a magazine and have stitched one of the projects, and I give the magazine away to a fellow stitcher, why can't she embroider the same project? Do I have to tell her specifically she's not allowed to stitch it?

I think the law is not absolute on this issue. In fact, in the past I have talked to an attorney and he said there are very gray areas. What we try to do here is discourage strongly the blatant misuse of patterns by copyright violators, such as photocopying original designs and selling them on EBay. I'm all for that.

As for Trademark violations, Within the past two years I was collared for a Trademark violation. The attorney and complainer wouldn't have won (I spoke with an attorney), but it would have cost me thousands to fight it. That's how some of these "gray" areas are resolved. Unless you have deep pockets, you give up.

Dianne

But you cannot photocopy the book, thereby creating another instantiation of the book.

But you cannot photocopy the book and keep the photocopy while returning the original to the library.

But you may not duplicate the CD.

But you are not allowed to make a copy of the broadcast to use over and over.

It is hard for some to understand, including many designers, but that's just the way the law is. It *isn't* any different from the law for books or CDs or any other medium. Copyright law is copyright law. In fact, the challenges likely arise from the fact that the law was probably written more with books and recordings in mind than with patterns to stitch in mind.

Best wishes, Ericka

The law has nothing to do with how many times you *use* something. If you create a cushion from a pattern, you can sit on it as many times as you like. If you make a dress, you can wear it as many times as you like. If you stitch a picture, you can look at it as many times as you like. What you *can't* do is create more instantiations of the design, just as you cannot photocopy the book or duplicate the CD.

Best wishes, Ericka

Again, not the same thing. You didn't turn one blanket into two blankets.

Best wishes, Ericka

Thank you Erica ,,, you are right that i don`t make a copy of the book or the CD , But i read it several times i liosten to the music several times ,,,,, Now what about the sewing patterns ? what if i buy a picture how many times can i look at it without paying again for it ??? mirjam

I understand the NOT MAKING a duplicate of the original ,,, but i still feel that if i buy a mag and knit from it i may knit the SAME pattern in as many colors i like ,,,, If i buy a book with STICHING Patterns i may use those Stitch patterns in as many places as i can knit , because this BOOK IS SOLD with THAT Purpose in mind !!!!! I use a Dictionary to look up words ,,, if we take the LAW to it`s extremity ,,,, once i look up a word and use it in my writing i will have to pay the Dictionary Author since i Made A COPY of THAT WORD that he included in his dictionary !!!! mirjam

Over the last two or three weeks, Nordic Needle has dealt with this issue in their weekliy newsletter. I think it was the EGA attorneys they contacted for information, and the articles were really interesting. You can look in the newsletter archives on their web site to read them.

Louisa

In US law:

"Subject to sections 107 through 122, the owner of copyright under this title has the exclusive rights to do and to authorize any of the following:

(1) to reproduce the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords;

(2) to prepare derivative works based upon the copyrighted work;

(3) to distribute copies or phonorecords of the copyrighted work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending;

(4) in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and motion pictures and other audiovisual works, to perform the copyrighted work publicly;

(5) in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and pictorial, graphic, or sculptural works, including the individual images of a motion picture or other audiovisual work, to display the copyrighted work publicly; and

(6) in the case of sound recordings, to perform the copyrighted work publicly by means of a digital audio transmission."

So, it is only the copyright holder who can make a copy of the work, or create a derivative work--or even display it publicly. When you purchase a chart, you're essentially purchasing a license, the terms of which are set by the copyright holder, not by the purchaser--and different copyright holders or different industries can choose different terms. And I suppose that there's probably precedent out there as to how these things are interpreted in the absence of clear language from the copyright holder.

(Oh, and when it comes to libraries, there are a whole lot of things that are different about libraries than individuals.)

best wishes, Ericka

Those are the two lines that refer to what Jim's proposing: preparing a derivative work, and distributing copies of those derivative works.

Generally speaking, the copyright police are not going to come into your house and say "aha, Jim, you prepared a derivative work from someone else's photo and hung the stitchery on your wall". So, where Jim would get hung up is the "distribution" in offering to make charts for other people. If they want their own chart, technically, they have to acquire their own copy of PatternMaker.

If you want to make a photocopy of a book you own for your own use (e.g., so you don't need to scribble in the margins of the original), that's fine, because you haven't distributed. But when you give away the book, you need to destroy the photocopy.

Let's say I did a print run of 1000 of my book/chart/music CD. That means that no more than 1000 people at a time are legally in possession of my work. Whether retyping, photocopying, scanning, burning CDs, the minute there are 1001 people who have it at the same time, someone's been distributing.

I agree. I don't understand Some People's reasoning for insisting one must buy a pattern each time they want to do the same piece, since they already own the pattern.

It's my understanding that the copyright extends to the copying of the pattern itself, not to mention distribution of aforementioned copies.

Re: Licenses. I don't think that when you buy the pattern you're buying a license. It may be that the terminology is wrong, but you're not buying the pattern to make a derivative work OF THE PATTERN. You're buying the pattern to do what the pattern is directing you to do.

When I buy a LICENSE from an artist to create the derivative work, I am buying the right to make the derivative work and then to distribute the derivative work as my own copyright (under whatever agreed upon conditions). Artist retains his copyright of the art. I retain my copyright of the pattern.

THANK you Ericka this was very enlighted ,, but i am still stuck with my Sewing book ,, here i have a book i purchased Ages ago, Sewing with out a pattern , it taught me to measure myself and sew my own clothes based on my measurements ,,,, I have other books where they taught how to make folklororistic clothes [ which they just collected and brought to print ] Is there any restriction on the things i make from these kinds of books??? How does This law apply to that ? Not that i thin k it should , because this books and mags are sold for the USING THEM as patterns to make something ,,,, mirjam

Thank you Elizabeth for putting this so Clear Nobody would suscribe to amy Knitting or Sewing mag if they would be limited to make only one exemplar of each sweater or clothing item ,,, it will be a death blow to all those mags ,,,,, What a long way we have mooved from the FIRST Embroidery patterns that were added to mags to ATTRACT buyers!!!! mirjam