OT: men wearing ear-rings

Can I have a turn too?

AFAICT, a kilt can no more be called a 'skirt' than an Indian sari could. Do a Google on 'kilt construction' or 'making a kilt' to discover why kilts and skirts are quite different animals.

Like the sari, the kilt is a highly traditional article of clothing, pleated and constructed in a special way from a very long piece of fabric. There is no waistband in a traditional kilt, nor is there a seam to form a 'skirt'. It is simply a very long piece of woollen fabric, usually dyed and woven in a traditional colour or tartan pattern. Google 'plaid' and 'kilt' together to see how the one developed from the other.

There is nothing 'lovely' or 'elegant' or 'cosy' about a kilt. Evolving from the traditional plaid, it was worn by Scots *men* and eventually became accepted battle dress for many Highland regiments. The kilting is the intricate pattern of pleating which accommodates the bulk of the plaid and allows freedom of movement to the wearer. The whole is secured by a wide leather belt and sometimes an end is thrown over one shoulder to form a sort of cloak. This is a male garment, while the sari (formed quite similarly from lighter fabrics) is a female garment.

Kilts are sold these days for wear by women, but AFAIK these items are almost exclusively skirts pleated onto a waistband in a similar pattern to the one used in the male kilt. The two garments are *not* the same, however, the kilt being utilitarian and traditional and the tartan skirt being a fashion item. I assume modern male kilts do involve a waistband of some sort simply for ease of dressing.

Of course, I imagine any Scotswoman would be proud to wear her clan's tartan in a skirt or 'ladies' kilt' (which is technically a misnomer)! To call the proud traditional garment a 'men's skirt' is still regarded as the highest insult by most Scots of my acquaintance. (Scots, please correct me if I'm wrong in this!)

If you want to preserve the analogy between the kilt and the sari: no one in his right mind would call a sari a 'skirt', so why on earth would one call a kilt a 'skirt'? The only loose similarity in terms is that all three are 'garments' without leg holes. Do a Google to find how kilts are constructed and the mistake can clearly be seen.

Mirjam, there's no need to twist things to 'the bad side' here! There is no 'bad' side - you've just made an error in what you think a kilt is and also made some potentially insulting comments about a traditional garment. The whole matter is really quite trivial unless you are a Scot who resents his national garment being called 'a men's skirt'. Since you are highly sensitive about people misunderstanding your own country's traditions and customs, I'm sure you can see that some folk would like to correct your misinformation about kilts?

That's all.

Probably we some people wear them and i just don`t know their Usa or UK name ,,,, Why don`t you knit ??? What is your Needlework Technique ???? mirjam

I have noticed that in films all kinds of nations call those cloth items KILTS. The names of any clothing item is Facinating and carries loads of history with it . I always am on the look out for more information. Thus i will add this to my files thank you !!! have you read my essay about Vests ? mirjam

And for a modern American take on the traditional kilt, there is now the Utilikilt

Wow, I'll take Sean Connery in the black leather utilikilts !

Yeah, I'll take Vladimir Kulich for 1000, Alec.

"lucretia borgia" wrote

way back in history, beanies were popular wear for highschool/university "frosh". I had to wear a beanie segmented in my school's colours (blue and blue, very creative) the first week of school. Mercifully it did not have a propeller. Dawne

I'd love to have seen it. Mostly recently locally there was a party to celebrate the founding of the internet (no Al Gore did not show) but one of the big instigators at Dalhousie showed up in his beanie lol I believe they are associated with 'nerds' too.

Nevertheless, I am sure MJ would not like to see a yarmulka and beanie as interchangeable in the way she apparently sees skirt/kilt as interchangeable and defies a Scot to suggest it is insulting.

yes, definitely nerdwear. And as for the other, pass me Sean Connery if there is any left when you're through with him, and sing a chorus of "I will survive". Dawne

lol

drool

Glad I was able to help!

MargW

Hi Mirjam,

You can't imagine how refreshing it is to have someone ask "why don't you...?" rather than "why do you...?" You've put a smile on my face this morning. I've done canvas work for more years than I care to remember, but since 2000 I've got seriously into Japanese embroidery. I wanted to get away from the tyranny of the counted thread, plus I saw some photos of traditional Japanese embroidery and I was absolutely knocked out. I still do canvas work, however, if I want something a bit less intense.

As for knitting, I've just never got into it. I can use one of those Knifty Knitter things, but regular knitting has just never appealed to me. Mind you, if I decided I wanted to do it, I would.

Johnno

Thank you Johno , for smiling about my question and finding it refreshing , I am a very curious person, and i find that by asking people i learn . If you already Do something , that you already do it, no point in asking about that . Since i feel /believe that person attrcted to craft/art usually can do more than one technique , it is the most natural thing to ask you why you don`t knit , once you wrote that ...

You are very Welcome !!!!! =A0>I've done canvas work for more years than I care to Canvas work for me was never about filling a whole canvas , but it was one way to add to another work,,,, Japanese embroidery WOW ,,, that takes very accurate work , do you do it with Silks ????

What is a Knifty knitter ?????

I am syre you can master it ,,,, quite quickly ,, i knit now around 60 years i assume if you pile all my knitted stuff we might reach the moon !!!! I also weave applique crochet embroider [write translate] Sew ,,,,, [clean cook etc... ] >

mirjam you are invited to look at my stuff in www. fibersiv.israel.net

It's like the old knitting dolly, only bigger. They come in circles, oblongs, whatever, and with various numbers of pegs. On the circular ones you can make beanies (!) or socks, depending on the size, or you can make a flat piece by going back and forth.

I only got involved with the Knifty Knitter because I got an idea I'd like to make a shawl for my mother, who had recently gone into a nursing home. I used the largest circle and worked it as a flat panel. It looked very good, I must say. I also made a terrific scarf for myself, though I probably won't do much more with it, and of course I won't need the scarf till mid-year. What I liked about the Knifty Knitter was the slow, meditative way you gradually build up a beautiful object. It was a spriitual experience, just as needlework is for me. Working with that silk is both a spiritual and sensual delight. Plus the idea of doing the work for someone you love adds a lot of meaning.

And I should have mentioned before that when on a bus I do ply-split braiding.

So you're absolutely right. Once you try one technique, you also like to try other things.

Johnno

You and your ply-split braiding, Johnno! ;-D I've tried and tried and I just can't master the knack!

I had a go with perle cotton #3, but I'm thinking I should try with something a bit less pliable (by that I mean 'bendy' rather than 'able to be plied' LOL!) Also, I didn't have a fid, I used a fat tapestry needle instead. The needle worked OK, but the plies just would behave for me. All I got was a birds' nest of knots and found myself forced to use the efficacious word *twice*! =:-0

Should I have started off with, maybe, nylon string and a proper fid? Do you have any tips for me? Oh, and where do you get the fids from? I know Lacis has them, but maybe you know of somewhere in Oz?

And while I'm at it, I've been trying to get hold of a netting needle for the longest time. If anyone knows of a source in Oz, I'd be most grateful to hear about it! (NB. I tried my best to get one from Birds Australia, but you have to have a bird-banding licence to own a mist-net and only then can you get a repair shuttle. In the final event, mist-netting shuttles are miles too big for hairnets anyway!)

Good Morning [here] and i think midday [at your side]

Aha you mean a Peg or nail knitting , which has many names , !!! many of us did it on a spool with 4 nails and produced a cord , and what you describe looks like it is PLANK KNITTING , wonderful possibilties ,, Do you know you can produce a double knit [ interlock] that can have both side k or both sides purl ??? i did some things like that . This is a very antique technique ,,

That is very nice .

As things look in the world it is good to have a GOOD warm shawl at home , i am now wrapped in one .

That is very nice to hear , For me it isn`t medidative, more like a natural thing i do, most of the time, was brought up with This saying about lazy hands ,,,,

Yes i too feel that working with silk has lots of good feelings.

Story of my life , i am always making some things for friends good aquaintances etc,,, my latest are Moebiouses,,,,, Knit or crochet in one piece ,, an easy carry along project , and all recievers [ who are asked for their preffered color and material and color, seem to love their present [esp with the freezing days now !!!]

That sounds very interesting,,, I tried it and decided it wasn`t for me ... but i enjoy seeing some of the nice things people produce .

I spoke from experience, mine and from looking around,,,,also i see how my [ex] students are eager to always try more techniques ,, Thank you for your lovely story .. mirjam

Interesting you should say this, Trish I bought some knitting cotton the other day, with the idea of making cords for ply-splitting. Well, what a mess I got myself into. I twisted the threads as much as I could, but the cords were hopeless. On the other hand, I've also been using 8-ply acrylic knitting yarn to make 2-ply cords with two strands in each ply, and it's a breeze. So maybe your problem is with the thread you're using. I'm going to chop off the mess I've made with that cotton, and I'll see how I go using the cords with a marudai disk. (Oh Oh, looks like yet another technique I've been doing.) I've got some #3 perle cotton too, but I haven't tried it out yet. I've mostly been using DMC floss, and that's perfect if you want fairly thin cords. I don't like the idea of using a tapestry needle. Too much mucking about. In theory, though, that's the same idea as the tribesmen in Rajastan use with their hand-carved wooden things that they use to pull the cord through.

I got a set of three gripfids from Louise French.

Give me a few days and I'll try to print some stuff out for you. Most of my books are still in storage, unfortunately. Sorry I don't have any ideas about netting needles.

Don't worry about using "that" word. The atmosphere can get pretty blue around me too if things aren't going well. Like when I'm stitching very carefully along a line, and I take another look and realise I'm stitching along the WRONG BLOODY LINE. See what I mean?

Next time I'm in Sydney (whenever that might be!) we must have a little ply-splitting workshop.

Johnno

Yes Trish , why wouldn`t you have a TURN ,,? interesting use of word and i will keep my right to have a turn as well ,,,,, >

I am sorry you didn`t even give me the respect to assume i did Google. i was telling a joke, as i remembered it, and it could have been left with that. But no some people have to TURN it into a flame war. Ok, so you take the example of a sari and wave it before my nose [so to say] and tell me a sari can`t be called a skirt , of course not, because a sari is used and worn as kind of Wrap around DRESS , or Jumper for that matter. And both the sari and the kilt are tradional clothes with Specific Geographical & cultural connections [ and both are loved by westerns who think nothing of cutting them up and use all this marvelous length to sew different clothings articles that have nothing to do with the original Sar or kilt ].... The matter of the Discussion here was , how another Culture or language uses a word of a former culture.... Now you do this all the time to my culture and language, and i don`t remember that i spoke so unkind to you about that ,, You say Halleluyah when it should be Hallelu-- Yah , you say Betnlehem when it should be Beth -- Lehem, you say Jerusalem when it should be Yerushalayim , You can`t even pronounce Haifa or LeHayim nore do you have a letter that is appropriate. You say Nazeret when it is Natzereth. You all call one of our seas the Dead Sea when it`s name is [ Yam Hamelach] = The Salty Sea, You call the Kinereth the sea of Gallillee..... By all this mispronuncing you are treadling over our traditions and culture... Do i scold you for it , NOi have to accept that this the way your Culture took over parts from my cultures and changed it, so you can better use it for your causes.

Well you might be wrong here, as otherwise how do you explain the Extremely great popularity of the Female form of skirt that evolved from the kilt, that comes back into fashion almost every 2nd year , or rarely leaves the fashion shops???? And it is considered all those GOOD things i mentioned about it .

Your Constant use of Mispronouncing places in my country, places in my Book , [ not to mention you calling my Holy book Old Testament , is a big insult that has caused ages of Sorrow to my people. I don`t think that calling a kilt = with a different name when it`s form has been adapted to a female highly popular Pattern of skirt is such a big insult . Reasonable recations would be a nod and a smile , maybe a shrug of the shoulder.

Since the problem here is not about an analogy between two clothing item, but the problem here is that many of you don`t realize, that there is OUT there a NONE English speaking world, that sometimes adopts an item from the English world and nicnames it with another name , more fitting to it`s own culture...and by respecting the source calls it by the source`s name `Scotish .` To call this an Insult is really a bit far fetched ,,,, .

Oh so now i am twisting things to the `bad` side ,,,, i am going now to comment to you something , about twisting things. Several years ago, you were Personally insulted as many people here openly and lengthly discussed and Accused the few Pedofile priests in USA ... there were all kinds of opinions, quite heated things were written, and you took that as a Personal insult and left this group with a big boom . At the time i tried to be objective reminded people that the offenders weren`t all the priests, but only a few ,,, the Flame war was high, At the time you , Who before that Used to join the Crowd who loves to Flame me , Wrote me a letter, in which you mentioned that only after this happening did you understand, how people in minorities , who are flamed by a group , feel . Now that you decided to come back ,,,, you again try to gain your `popular place` by joining the flamers ,,,,, please do think about that when you falsely accuse me of

When exactly and in whicj manner did i insult that Clothing item ?

I think i took the correction , and will remember it, even without your extra added insults. mirjam