***Very OT*** CHRISTMAS ***OT***

I'm sorry Pat but I still don't understand. . I choose to celebrate Christmas with friends of mine and I do love seeing the decorations and the wonderful lit up trees and I don't want to leave out Santa, but as I understand it Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Christ and not all of us believe that he is our leader.

I have been known to go for an Easter dinner with a friend of mine and she has been in my home for a Passover dinner. I have gone to Chinatown in New York to see the wonderful celebration they have on the Chinese New Year and I have even gone to a Midnight Mass at St. Patricks Cathedral in New York with a friend, but the true meaning of those holidays has always been religious and not for everyone.

If you want to celebrate a "generic" Christmas that's fine with me, but it's not what I was taught to respect.

Lucille>>

Yep . . . it's a new phenomena. Fundamentalist Christians are having a fit because retailers have taken the words "Merry Christmas" and chosen instead to say, "Happy Holidays". They got all over Lowes building supply stores for calling Christmas trees "Holiday Trees". Lowes, I guess, finally changed the sign. I'm not sure. I forget what I read. They are so angry that they are refusing to shop. Not sure how far that will go . . . probably not very far. But on this other coupld forums I am on, the feelings of these fundamentalists are quite strong. They see it as destroying America. Never mind that one has nothing to do with the other. It's their point of view and they're furious.

Dianne

I agree with you, Lucille - you obviously like to enjoy every aspect of "Christmas" or "the Winter Festival" for want of a better term, just as I and most of us do. I`m afraid that to most people these days it`s just that. Maybe you should rephrase that to the "original" meaning of Christmas - but then there`s the other view that the "original" meaning of what we are now encouraged to call the "winter holidays" was the celebration of the Winter Solstice - and still is celebrated as such by many people. So now we are just going round in circles! My point is, what does it matter what you call it - whatever you believe it is, is right for you so why should anyone feel the need or justification to protest or criticise how anyone else celebrates it whatever they call it, or think of it.

People shouldn`t criticise how others celebrate whatever it is - they should just mind their own business and do what seems right to them! Yet again "An it harm none, do as thou wilt!"

I went to a Convent school, and loved every aspect of it, although I was not a Catholic. I still love the midnight mass - because of the atmosphere and beauty of it - even better if I can catch a Latin Mass. I now regard Christmas as a beautiful kind of "Fairy story", no more than that, but I still enjoy it - probably just the memories of childhood.

I don`t really mind the commercialisation - after all, you can`t really blame the shopkeepers for trying to make a profit. The fault can only be laid at the door of those who spend so much on what are mostly unnecessary frivolities. Then again, it`s up to them - but an awful lot of good could be done with the money spent on those frivolities! It`s been a very interesting discussion, anyway, and we could probably go on with it until next Christmas! LOL! No-one is ever going to TOTALLY agree on what makes Christmas or how best to celebrate it, but who cares? Just enjoy it - or don`t, as the case may be.

Anyway, Happy Christmas, Holidays, Solstice, or whatever is your angle, to everyone. That`s the most important thing!

Pat P

Pat P

Lucille i am with you in the same boat , Christmas is a Christian holiday Not an Americana Holiday ,,,,, ps i would add to baseball , `cowboy films` , jeans , coca cola , even though this are worn and consumed worldwide , they are considered Americanism ..... mirjam

You are Wrong PP, Christmas parties and celebrations are world spread now and each country added some local `flavour` to it , but it still is and will be The Story of the Baby Born in BETH-LEHEM ,,,,,, By the way , you all might be interested to know that Beth-Lehem , is loosing it`s Christian population. Soon Beth -Lehem , just as Nazereth will have a Christiam minority. mirjam

I think Dianne and PP , that you both miss the point ,, that Fundamenal People are very active nowin all faiths ,,, the question if this happened, in the one faith and than the other awakened because of the threat to it`s beliefs, isn`t relevanyt now,,,, The fact is Fundementalism is OUT there every where [ Dark ages again]. Thus even the non -fundamental people are a bit uneasy.... On the one hand they want every one to have freedom to have /live and act their own belief, but in return they get attacked either verbally or sometimes even physically, because they choose for free thought.. The Cultural War that happens all over the globe, makes people aware that Free thought is in Danger ... And that is the reason that some people suddenly are edgy about `wishes` with a religious message that isn`t theirs.

mirjam

I haven't missed any point, thank you.

,, that

Yes, I tend to agree. I understand it quite well. I've just been reporting on it as it has been swirling around me.

Dianne

No, we haven`t missed the point at all - I just don`t even consider the unbalanced opinions of fundamentalists in the equation.

Pat P

You can close your eyes , plug your ears and clench your nose ....But Fundamentalists are Here , getting stronger , pushing their way into all Government positions ,,, and pushing countries and faiths to quarrrel and fight .... mirjam

But it wasn't. And it isn't. It was the Age of Enlightenment. Whole different attitude toward churches and religion and god/God. Google "Declaration of Independence" and read the version that went to the Second Continental Congress from the committee, not the version that came out of that Congress.

But the Xians call that sensitivity being "politically correct," and sneer at it and insist that the "libruls" are trying to de-Christianize Christmas and this upstanding Chosen-One-of-God Christian country.

I know. That's what I've been saying! I'm quite concerned about it, and am shoving back when I can. Dianne

That is the god approach ,,, Dianne , i am really worried about people who dismiss them as mrs PP does,,, mirjam

Are they really oversensitive when there are folks who really are against them?

Do you really think so? Or is it just that the minorities are too fearful to rock the boat when they feel they exist on sufferance already, so they keep mum even when they do object? When I talk to certain minority group members, I do tend to hear (in very careful words, and only if I know the person well) significant objections. They just seem to feel that it's better not to say anything about it for fear of being further ostracized.

Well, maybe I'm one of the "over-the-top do- gooding politically correct brigade," but I do think that there's a quite a bit of animosity towards some groups in the US, though which specific groups probably varies from region to region. I think discrimination is an actual problem, not a made up one, and I believe that discrimination heightens tensions to a point that otherwise innocuous stuff becomes volatile.

Best wishes, Ericka

Sure, I hear that too. Don't really see the merit in the argument (the notion that the US is somehow becoming areligious or taken over by non-Christians is pretty much laughable on the face of it). I also, however, hear a quieter voice that is rather afraid of the group you describe, especially as they become bigger, louder, and more politically active.

Best wishes, Ericka

There is a pretty strong movement in the US to move toward Biblical law and legislate Christian morality.

There are many in the US who celebrate a secular only Christmas. IOW, they have Christmas trees and give presents and such, but they don't identify themselves as Christian and don't attend church.

Best wishes, Ericka

But isn't that the question? What if it *does* harm some people if certain lines are crossed in the celebration of Christmas (i.e., not in church or by private individuals or organizations, but in other situations)?

Best wishes, Ericka

If people truly want to be totally p.c. about it, they would simply say "Hello" or "Welcome" or some other year-round generic greeting. There is nothing that says the season must be mentioned in a greeting. Would that not be the safest path?