***Very OT*** CHRISTMAS ***OT***

Absolutely. I've never gotten the notion that somehow if everyone doesn't play along with my holiday, it's somehow disrespectful or hostile to me. I find I can celebrate Christmas just fine with my family and my church. I don't really require the public sphere to prop me up in that regard.

Best wishes, Ericka

Well, to be fair, at the time they didn't really have anything other than various forms of Christianity in mind. And, the US is pretty much the most Christian nation going. So, between the history and the popularity, Christians in the US have been pretty accustomed to getting their way and living as if Christians are the only ones here. A lot of folks are used to non-Christians being quiet and marginal. As they get louder, those who want the public sphere to be essentially Christian push back. They often couch it in the guise of wanting *all* religions free to be active in the public sphere, but in reality, it doesn't really work out that way often. They don't want anyone making a fuss over Ramadan for a month, nor would they want to deal with any substantial fraction of restaurants being closed during daylight hours because of Ramadan. They just want to make as big a fuss over Christmas as they feel like without anyone telling them that they find it a bit much.

It's the other way around here. The US is not technically a Christian country, yet we have very high rates of church attendance compared to other countries.

Even though the US is pretty overwhelmingly Christian, we don't have a monolithic Christian church. There are lots of different Christian churches in the US, and they vary substantially on these sorts of issues.

Best wishes, Ericka

But then again, where was the big to-do during Yom Kippur or Eid al Fitr? If we were truly interested in being fair, we'd deal with other religion's *important* holidays whenever they happened, not just lump in whatever holiday happens to be closest to Christmas to justify our desire to keep Christmas in the public sphere.

Best wishes, Ericka

"Pat P" >

Everybody put on their dirndls and lederhosen and sing--- "So long, farewell,. auf wiedersehn, adieu!! Adieu, adieu, to yieu and yieu and yieu!" Dawne

Let me try again. :-) They resent anyone who tries to disconnect "America" from "christian". There is a very real "mood" by christians that the U.S. is being stolen from it's ideal. That America was founded by christians. This is a christian nation. Anything else must stay in the background.

I agree it's illogical, but you would be very amazed at the vehemence. They are upset with retailers who have decided openly to dispense with "Merry Christmas" to their preferred "Happy Holidays" (in order not to offend . . . which is something retailers try hard not to do). Jerry Fallwell, and extreme rightwing christian, has also gotten into the act and called up Lowes (a building supply store) to take down the signs on their "Holiday Trees".

Dianne

Meant to say "Hear" that "farewell". By that I meant the "Have a nice day one". I`m confusing everyone. Anyway I don`t like it - don`t weant to see "Sound of Music" trotted out any more, come to that! I reckon the whole world knows it all by heart by now! ;-))

Pat P

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote

Best wishes,

Oh, as exactly do we - the OFFICIAL" religion of the UK is Church of England - but all religious sects are catered for as well and they all get on fine.

An interesting letter in the paper today from a Sikh leader stated that contrary to what has sometimes been intimated, Sikhs are not in the least offended by our Christmas, and, in fact, like to join in, and even attend the services.

Pat P

Polling data from the 2001 ARIS study indicate that:

81% of American adults identify themselves with a specific religion: 76.5% (159 million) of Americans identify themselves as Christian. This is a major slide from 86.2% in 1990. Identification with Christianity has suffered a loss of 9.7 percentage points in 11 years -- about 0.9 percentage points per year. This decline is identical to that observed in Canada between 1981 and 2001. If this trend continues, then by about the year 2042, non-Christians will outnumber the Christians in the U.S.

52% of Americans identified themselves as Protestant.

24.5% are Roman Catholic. 1.3% are Jewish. 0.5% are Muslim, followers of Islam. The fastest growing religion (in terms of percentage) is Wicca -- a Neopagan religion that is sometimes referred to as Witchcraft. Numbers of adherents went from 8,000 in 1990 to 134,000 in 2001. Their numbers of adherents are doubling about every 30 months. 4,5 Wiccans in Australia have a very similar growth pattern, from fewer than 2,000 in 1996 to 9,000 in 2001. 10 In Canada, Wiccans and other Neopagans showed the greatest percentage growth of any faith group. They totaled 21,080 members in 1991, an increase of 281% when compared with 1990.

14.1% do not follow any organized religion. This is an unusually rapid increase -- almost a doubling -- from only 8% in 1990. There are more Americans who say they are not affiliated with any organized religion than there are Episcopalians, Methodists, and Lutherans taken together. 6 bullet The unaffiliated vary from a low of 3% in North Dakota to 25% in Washington State. "The six states with the highest percentage of people saying they have no religion are all Western states, with the exception of Vermont at

22%." 6

A USA Today/Gallup Poll in 2002-JAN showed that almost half of American adults appear to be alienated from organized religion. If current trends continue, most adults will not call themselves religious within a few years. Results include:

About 50% consider themselves religious (down from 54% in 1999-DEC) About 33% consider themselves "spiritual but not religious" (up from 30%) About 10% regard themselves as neither spiritual or religious.

Taken from

"So long, farewell, auf wiedersehn, good night! I hate to go and leave this pretty sight!"

Joan (who'll now have to go watch her favorite movie again!)

JMO.. If you are a believer and want to celebrate Christmas, then you needn't cave into these namby pamby substitute actions. I'm not upset if someone wants to celebrate his religious holiday - and Christians should feel free to do likewise.

Last year I checked my received cards - only 12% mentioned the word Christmas. What the heck is everyone afraid of? Looking like believers?

I can only speak for myself, but I deliberately choose both cards that are clearly Christian and those that do not specify Christmas. I am Pagan, and have a number of friends who are also Pagan, or Jewish, or of no affiliated religion. But I also have devoutely religious Christian friends and I like to honor their tradition as well.

What am I afraid of? Nothing really, I just like to show those I care about that I take the time to think about them. If I have the time and the chance to have both types of cards, why would I deliberately snub my non-Christian friends with clearly Christian religious symbols, and vice versa? Not fear; just sensitivity, I think.

Pat

val189 wrote:

The Bush family holiday cards show the dogs and cat playing in the snow in front of the White House, and don't say a thing about "Christmas", which has his Christian/conservative supporters annoyed. One of them said something to the effect that "he claims he's a born again Christian, but he sure doesn't act like it."

You mean a holiday candlestick?? Judy

pussy yes scy pa

Talking about GWB - someone (who shall be nameless) sent me a calendar for my desk with a Bushism a day.

I found the one for December 7 very interesting in light of Katrina.

"The person who runs FEMA is someone who must have the trust of the president. Because the person who runs FEMA is the first voice, oftentimes, of someone whose life has been turned upside down hears from"

That was said in Austin, Texas in 2001 - presumably when he was busy appointing his friend as head of FEMA

Speaking of GWB, go to Google, type in the word 'failure' and hit the 'I'm feeling lucky' button. Interesting, no? Dora

This can't necessarily be generalize to all other religions, however. Sikhism is rather eclectic and does acknowledge Jesus as a person of some importance, so celebrating his nativity isn't such a stretch for them. For religions that have different theological perspectives, participating in festivities may be outright forbidden.

Best wishes, Ericka