***Very OT*** CHRISTMAS ***OT***

The US is "being taken over" by people who are not as zealous Christians as the Moral Majority, and that's where the problem comes in. Because I'm not a public Bible Thumper, because I subscribe to "love the sinner" when it comes to my gay friends, I fit the category of people the far right worries about. Doesn't make me areligious or non-Christian, just a more liberal thinker than they believe "true Christians" should be. (Which, incidentally, is something I was taught at a Christian college

-- that a lot of Jesus' teachings are liberal or socialist.)

And in this household, we celebrate a secular Chanukah (latkes and freestanding candles, yes; actual menorah and prayers, no), a secular St. Patrick's Day (green beer and corned beef, but no Mass), a secular Midsummer (no dancing around under the midnight sun).... Just because we believe "any excuse for a party". As my Jewish friend is well aware, I celebrate a secular Yom Kippur by watching Neil Diamond in "The Jazz Singer" -- doesn't offend my friend at all, because at least I'm taking notice of the day.

Then again, my Jewish friend just sang in a Christmas concert with his secular chorus, and when we were in college, he sang lots of Christian music because that's what the touring choir sang as representatives of a Christian institution. (His explanation, if I don't believe Eliza Doolittle is anything more than a fictional character when I sing about her, then it follows that he can also sing about fictional characters about whom we have agreed to disagree.)

What he and I both find more offensive than being wished a Happy Not-My-Holiday is somber days like Memorial Day and Veteran's Day, which are intended to honor the dead, being turned into big sale days at the mall and party day at the beach.

Yeah, but, see, I can't speak for them. I can only speak for me.

Wasn't Jefferson an agnostic? I know I read that somewhere....

Pat

Darla wrote:

Yes I do really think so - although I can only speak of experience over here. Most of us rub along quite happily and pleasantly, but the rest certainly rarely keep mum, but look for trouble where none exists. Who wants the safest path? All that that means is you give up more and more of your own rights and customs in case you "offend" strangers to our shores. For centuries it has been normal to wish anyone and everyone "Happy Christmas" and I don`t see why anyone should be offended any more than most of us would be if wished "Happy Diwalhi" or anything else. We are more likely to ask for an explanation out of sheer interest rather than complain!

If you were in Israel, would you take offence if someone wished you a "Happy Hannukah" at the appropriate time?

As for discrimination, there are so many petty laws about that that we Anglo Saxons are starting to feel more like the victims! And that`s more insulting to the minorities in the long run, and in any case tends to cause more tension than it cures.

Pat P

Yes, and I think our current government is exacerbating those fears.

Dianne

Pat, Jefferson was a deist: One who admits the possibility of the existence of a God or gods, but claims to know nothing of either, and denies revelation. An agnostic of olden times.

Dianne

Pat Dumas wrote:

Ah, yes. Thank you, Dianne!

Pat

Dianne Lewandowski wrote:

Put it this way, Ericka, any harm done is self inflicted. If people minded their own darned business and celebrated (or didn`t) Christmas in their own way and left other to celebrate it in theirs there isn`t any problem. I really think you`re trying to invent problems.

Pat P

That`s the trouble, Pat - if only people WOULD just speak for themselves about religion (preferably only when asked) and not try to make everyone else agree with them! Christians are very guilty of that, I`m afraid.

Pat P

First of all, NONE of this is directed at anyone on this board. It is a general expression of opinion and concern.

The fear I have is that we will soon not be able to express any individuality. If you want to put out Christmas decorations in your yard, or send me a card, and I don't like that, do I have a "right" to make you stop? Presumably if we are friendly enough that you want to send me a card, we can discuss that situation and arrive at an agreement. But what you do on your own property should not be my concern. I may not like it but do I have a "right" to make you stop?

At what point did tolerance for others turn into "Let's make everyone the same, as long as they do it OUR way"? I am truly puzzled by this.

I understand that as primates, we are inherently afraid of what is different - that is a protective mechanism. But isn't our intellect supposed to overcome our hardwiring? I don't think of myself as a Rodnye King, but can't we all just get along?

Even on this board, where we are all interested in the same things and all reasonable, intelligent individuals, there sometimes arises such vitriol that I have to stop reading for awhile. It seems so pointless - we aren't on this earth all that long - must we spend it bickering, pointing fingers, trying to make everyone the same?

This is a season that basically celebrates the turning toward light - whether you see that as the birth of a savior, the oil that never runs out, or the return of the sun. Can't we just agree to be joyful and be grateful that our neighbors want to cover their house in colored lights, or put a candle in the menorah, or dance in the snow on the Solstice?

"An it harm none, do what thou wilt" is a lot tougher to do than it sounds. It doesn't mean you can do anything you want - it means you have to carefully judge your motives and actions so that they truly are not harmful - just try doing that for one hour, let alone a lifetime. It requires constant awareness of what you do and how it affects everything around you.

I will now get off my soapbox and await the responses. I will also say this - I may be a lurker but I love and value every one of you for your individual talents, opinions, and beliefs. I love you as the wonderful creatures you are - in all your variety and splendor! May your holidays, whatever you celebrate, bring you peace of mind and body, and hopes and dreams for the future year.

Pat in Illinois

I agree with nearly all of what you wrote and thank you for this thoughtful message.

But I don't quite understand what you mean when you say: " I don't think of myself as a

Wasn't he the black kid who was beaten by the LosAngeles police and was in some ways connected to the beginning of the riots?

Lucille

Yes - and of course I misspelled the name! I guess I meant that nobody has ever beaten me nor have I been the victim of that kind of prejudice, so I don't want to set myself up to sound like I have those problems - but I certainly do echo his sentiments!

Pat >

We mostly say Hag Smaeach ,, which means Happy Holiday without mentioning which holiday it is mirjam

Excuse me ? Hanuka is not a minor holiday at all, it is a very important Holiday mirjam

PsssT ,,,,, Karen ,,, Hanuka is in fact a mostly secular holiday ,,, people do work whole days and only in the evening light candles , sing and play ,,, It is very much a National Holiday Mixed with spiritual meanings And As you write that you 'celebrate a secular Yom Kippur " Just do me , otthers But mainly yourself a favour and don`t say such a strange imnpossible expression , Yom Kippur is not a celebration in the way you mean it , it is a day of looking into one`s soul. There is no need to spit into other` people`s beliefs, By this kind of talk . mirjam

Maybe this is an appropiate time to post an old poem.

There is so much good in the worst of us; And so much bad in the best of us; That it ill behooves any of us; To talk about the rest of us. HTH.

Neither have I, but I will admit to wanting to a few times.

Lucille>

Pat P wrote

Collectively, historically, I couldn't agree more. But individually, some of us are quite tolerant. I personally have yet to burn a single heretic. Dawne

What I am seeing is somewhat the opposite. Those who believe in the birth of Christ and the celebration of Christmas are upset because retailers and others are trying to take the Christ out of Christmas, and presumeably also out of America. At least that is their fear. I don't see non-believers trying to take Christmas out of anything, however, they may not celebrate it quite the same way, and they may often use a generic greeting.

And great soapbox candor it was.

Dianne