What are you stitching next?

I also remember 'If you're not with us, you're against us' - would that Blair had not been and your kids might have been home sooner.

I can't hold Blair accountable for a war we intentionally and unlawfully started in the first place. It was Collin Powell who sat before the UN telling them where the nukes were, the WMD, how they showed actual satellite photo's of the units where the Iraqi's were manufacturing Ricin, etc. Notice how Rummy has disappeared off the planet earth! Not a peep out of that war criminal.

I'm disgraced.

I think it's easier to be poor when everyone around you is poor. But in the US, 99% of families own cars, TVs, electricity, telephone, so every time you look around, you see what you're lacking. You can't justify it that everyone else who works just as hard as you is struggling just as much as you and only those with inherited wealth are better off.

I grew up in a small blue-collar town, and a lot of the kids had no idea how poor they were, because no one they knew had much more than they did. Everyone wore hand-me-downs, no one had a second TV in the house, some families had 3 or 4 kids to the bedroom and grandma sleeping on the couch. There simply wasn't anyone around driving a Jaguar or living in a mansion or dining on lobster, for us to compare ourselves to, to know that we were poor. They had no clue that there are people who don't eat spaghetti every night. (One friend of the family says she was a working woman before she found out that normal people eat meatballs with their spaghetti; her family was so poor that many nights they didn't even get tomato sauce on theirs -- they never had enough spare money to afford meatballs.)

You'd see the missionary photos from Africa at church and think you were rich because you had a real house to live in. That was really the only "outside world" that a lot of these kids ever saw to compare themselves to.

Some of us left town and discovered only at that point that what we always thought was "average" probably qualified as (being generous) "lower middle-class and barely hanging on by our fingernails".

"Karen C - wrote

I think you are right, in one sense. But on the other hand, when one reads about the infant mortality rates in some African countries, the rate of death from AIDS, there has to be some point where wrong becomes an absolute term, no matter if most people are suffering in the same way. And then there are the refugees, the victims of civil war, and those who have been hard hit by drought; at some point, they had something, even if it doesn't seem like much to us. Now they have nothing. And given the global spread of our consumer culture, I am sure there are places where people drink seriously polluted water within sight of a Coca Cola billboard. Dawne

I know there are. I've been reading a Latin American newspaper online to brush up my Spanish grammar (which has gone to you-know-where in a handbasket after 28 years of speaking Spanglish with quasi-illiterate farmworkers), and there was just such a photo several months ago. In this corner, children dumping a wheelbarrow of household trash into a river to be washed down to sea, with a caption that such trash-dumping causes the water to be unsanitary not only for their village but for every village downstream, and in that corner, a small piece of what I recognized as a Coke ad.

And apparently they don't require bottle deposits, because I thought I saw a Coke bottle among the trash being dumped, and if they'd paid a few cents deposit for it, I'm sure they wouldn't be tossing it in the creek.

There are some things in what you said which actually, thinking about it now, may be a good thing. One television, for example. Why do we need a television in every room, wheezing the phosphorescence through the night, turning the turbines which make electricity which in turn uses energy leaving a huge footprint on the atmosphere.

Maybe it's not so bad to eliminate at least half the different cereals down the double aisled cereal rows, top to bottom. Why do we need a thousand different kinds? Remember candy at the penny store? That was fun.

I had a double life as a kid. My mothers family were old money wealthy, but had no class. I had two Great great aunts who were in the concentration camps and survived. They somehow got out with their family money in tact. I wish I knew to ask these questions when they were alive, but i was very young when they died...about 20ish. All I knew was sex, drugs and rock and roll.

My father's family were Italian immigrants who came through Ellis Island and my grandfather was a barber. Some how they bought a tenement on Rogers Avenue and Cortelou Road in Brooklyn and the lower level storefront was the CBS which stood for Carmine's Barber Shop. Pole and all! It was an old building, but you could eat off the floor.

So, I saw both roads, sort of. The people I have the most compassion for are the people who have excess and who are attached to their things and have their priorities screwed up. The poor will get through all of this recession, but the upper to lower mid classes are going to fold in on themselves if they live way above their means. They stand to suffer the most loss, I'm afraid.

Nothing is clear cut, black and white, and I say this from my limestone home with my lap pool in the yard. So, I'm really not complaining. I feel for anyone who can't feed their children, here or there.

Well, because in most houses in our town Papa ruled the TV. Teacher would send us home with an assignment to watch some educational program on PBS, and if it conflicted with Papa's favorite show or the ballgame, Mama would make it clear that "Papa paid for the TV, he decides what we watch". In many cases, Papa would endure three incomprehensible minutes of Shakespeare and decide he'd rather watch his show instead of another two hours of this stuff.

One year, my mother had surgery just before Christmas, putting a major crimp in Christmas shopping, so I got one gift: a 13" B/W TV. I was the envy of all my friends, because I could actually watch what I wanted. Of course, it came at a price: (1) I had to nurse my mother through her recovery (and she's world's worst patient), (2) I had bronchitis for 6 weeks every other year and was stuck in bed for the duration. I doubt I would've gotten my own TV if I hadn't spent so much time in bed.

Nah, reducing foreign aid won't do anything. Reducing the defense budget might, though.

Elizabeth

Right, but that's not foreign aid. That comes out of the defense budget which is what I referred to as killing other people.

Elizabeth

Since you're the one who has to drive it, nobody else's opinion should count for as much as yours.

Elizabeth

Would you be referring to the aid money that we give countries with the specific stipulation that it be used to buy weapons from us? Do be careful where you put the blame for that one, will you?

Elizabeth

You might want to test drive a Mini then. I am amazed at how much room they have. PT Cruisers, too.

Elizabeth

VWs still have a lot of headroom. DH is over 6'4", don't forget.

Elizabeth

And I think that the fact that you would think such a thing means that you have no idea what it means to be truly poor. I don't think there could be anything easy about watching your children die of starvation even if your neighbors' kids are too.

Elizabeth

I understand what Karen meant, but I was actually talking about people who have nothing. Not one thing. No shoes. No water. No roof. No food. The poorest poor in our country have no idea what that feels like. I'm talking about all the AIDS orphans in Africa. I saw this little boy taking care of his littler brother and all they owned was a light piece of cloth and the older boy (age 5) covered his baby brother with it at night because it was cold at night. They have nothing. Breaks my heart. The money we spent on this idiotic war crime cold have paid for everyone in America to have healthcare, all Medicare recipients have free drugs, and much of the third world could have been fed. We could have helped fix Mexico so they didn't risk their lives coming across just to get a stinking job making 4 dollars an hour. Eh...My heart breaks for so many suffering people.

Reducing foreign aid will make More people worlkless in USA ,, mirjam

Hey come on ! I realize that is defence money. Actually GWB decreased foreign aid somewhat by no longer funding birth control clinics (I am not talking about abortion there, more condoms and lessons to some who are not clear about womens cycles) which is a great pity. I assume it was done to placate a certain section of the Republican Party.

That is common to all the 'wealthy' nations. They look good saying they are going to donate X billion to the problem. I recall years ago, during the Biafran crisis I seem to think, Canada promised help.

At that point Massey Ferguson was in financial trouble so the government bought who knows how many tractors from them, shipped them to Africa, sent people to teach the farmers how to use them and left. When the gas in the tractors ran out, they never moved again, but Canada could honestly say they had contributed. Tractors were totally unsuitable on small plots strewn with rocks and in an area where there were no gas stations. Arggggghhh !!!

Which also brings me round to saying that one should be careful where you donate, really look to see what exactly they do, how they use your money etc.

We'll see. I thought there had been some changes from the A6 to the new version. The A5 is new. We were also looking at the A4 ragtop, but the sport version. We'll see - right now we can't afford a Hundai! Anyhow - remember - you're talking to someone who used to rally her +30 year old classic 911, complete with upgraded extra oil circulating system, etc. I used to be a gearhead, and DH is pretty knowledgable - so we look at a lot of the mechanical stuff. I tend to not buy cars/things that have "too many moving parts" which don't really serve a purpose but are there to look cool, or get ooohs and aaahs from the average consumer (distraction).

Head room is why we have the Expedition, not an Explorer (with the sun roof the Explorer was uncomfortable for DH). We check out lots before doing anything. It'll be a while - job first.

Ellice