How long and how much --

Thanks for the wonderful info. As for the quilt assembly part -- depending upon the pattern, I would think you could do a couple of blocks (or a small "section") to see how long that takes -- then multiply accordingly for creating the blocks. The assembly part usually goes together much faster than the block part -- so maybe 20 or 25% of that time? Just a thought on how you might get a feel for that time.

Again -- thanks!

Very true. And you know what? I probably have notes to that effect somewhere but I wouldn't expect to find them anytime soon! lol -- It's amazing how much figgerin' and cypherin' goes into these 3D textile artworks. And I went to law school so I wouldn't have to do numbers!

I'll make the appropriate records of time spent while I'm making the next quilts.

But it is so obvious to me how much the huge variation in skill, complexity of design, etc., etc., can affect the time and costs. As far as skill goes, I would propose to increase ones hourly rate as ones skill increases (just as one would as a lawyer), and let the client's demands (on commission) or the quilt's demands (as a personal project that may be intended for sale) dictate how many hours get billed at the given rate.

I'd be interested to hear how the professional quiltmakers here do this sort of thing. I'm inevitably basing my own time and cost paradigm on my experience with billing as a lawyer (with a little bit of Web research and LQS inquiry about how professional quiltmakers bill, as well).

ep

It wasn't a great moment in anybody's life but you may remember that a few weeks back I made my sister an apron. ( You know, the sister who dips the ties on her aprons in the toilet. Yeah, that one.) She asked why I didn't sell them on ebay. I calculated real and reasonable costs. That apron cost about $ 257 not including ebay and paypal fees or shipping/postage gouging. I offered to give her the pattern. She can get rich. Polly

it comes with a gold ingot in the pocket then i presume. j.

"Polly Esther" wrote ... It wasn't a great moment in anybody's life but you may remember that a few weeks back I made my sister an apron. ( You know, the sister who dips the ties on her aprons in the toilet. Yeah, that one.) She asked why I didn't sell them on ebay. I calculated real and reasonable costs. That apron cost about $ 257 not including ebay and paypal fees or shipping/postage gouging. I offered to give her the pattern. She can get rich. Polly

I'm not sure they'd charge by hour for a whole project, or even parts of it. Binding services are often charged per inch, for example, but they probably worked out their per inch rate by estimating time and cost for that amount of time.

It's easier for me to talk about using the example of a builder, you are usually advised to steer clear of one who charges by the hour, rather than by the job done, because they can slow down and charge you more!

Though with building work, unexpected things do crop up, so it's also reasonable that cost might change based on that.

With a quilt though, should anything unexpected come up? It will if you are inexperienced and doing something for the first time, but even a fairly inexperienced quilter can go through a design they've done before, or a simple one that they haven't without anything unexpected coming up - but if it did, is it fair to charge by the hour for that.

Leslie's chain piecing of 110 log cabin blocks where the bobbin thread ran out very early on hasn't been mentioned for a while, frustrating though it was, if she was working on a project for me, I shouldn't have to pay her for the time wasted.

I've heard a rule for people starting out in earning money for a hobby of thinking of a number and doubling it. $15 is peanuts, sure, it's more than minimum wage, but in a minimum wage job you are also not paying for the heating in the building, the plumbing for the toilet, the till you are working etc.

Cheers Anne

I agree about charging by the job instead of by the hour, but you have to know something about how long it takes in order to come up with a reasonable price for the job.

Julia >

I've charged by the tenth of an hour for over twenty years. I don't pad my hours because that would be unethical, and because I don't need to if I charge a fair rate. Lots of professions charge based on time worked, from plumbers to lawyers.

I didn't mean to suggest that a client should be charged for surprises or mistakes. It's not a question of that. What charging by the hour *does* address is when the client changes his or her mind. I'm sure I don't need to tell you how often that happens. (And I don't understand why a bobbin running out would be a "mistake"? Isn't that inevitable? It just takes a few minutes to wind a bobbin and resume sewing. I thought such tasks would be an assumed part of any sewing project.)

I would not charge a flat rate for any commissioned work at my skill level except a couple of stages, like design; it's too easy to end up holding the bag.

It is of course true that some quiltmakers charge by the linear inch for binding and square inch for long-arm quilting. These are experienced people who know how much time and material such tasks take. I do *not* know (yet) how long FMQ takes me, for example, or cutting templates, or marking fabric. I prefer to offer the client a choice about such matters, with my best estimate of how much time it will take. It would be very important to me to communicate with the client as the successive phases take more or less time than I estimate I give the client.

When I was researching ideas for how to draft the memorandum of understanding I circulated a few weeks ago, I saw that most quiltmakers charge at least some tasks based on time -- just as I did in my MOU. I was not inclined to assume such quiltmakers are any more unethical than I am. Cheating and padding ones bill is not a good way to get referral business or a good business reputation.

Some people naturally prefer to charge by piecework. If other quiltmakers charge more or less than I think is fair rate for me. I based my hourly rate based on what I saw in my research and what I felt my skill level at quiltmaking and general professionalism in business justified.

With respect to Polly's remark about how expensive her apron was, I totally understand. I once calculated that if I had charged my usual hourly rate as a lawyer for a potholder I made, it would cost over $250 :-) but that's not how the world works. If I made a quilt exactly the way *I* wanted to for a client, the finished price would *start* at $2,000, and go up for, e.g., hand-quilting, complex piecework, and complex quilting. If a client wants to commission such a quilt, I'd warn them accordingly and definitely charge by the hour. But some practical decisionmaking can keep the quilt cost down while giving the quiltmaker a fair fee.

ep

LOL! Imo, you've got it figured about right. I figure some of my hand-pieced, hand-quilted quilts are worth about $100,000. ;-)

Michelle in Nevada

We can always dream, right? I "timed" a baby quilt many years ago - it was hand-pieced and hand-quilted, and it took me 80 hours to do just that much. I didn't keep track of the time it took to prepare fabric and cut it. Do you think anyone would pay me $1,600 (I figure I'm worth at least $20 an hour!) to make another one? If so, send them my way. I'd be glad to do it!

Sure -- if I a quiltmaker wants charge someone to do a quilt requiring the utmost expertise and the finest materials, that's going to cost a lot of money. And I'll bet there would be somebody out there who would be willing to pay for it, if you can find them, or if they come to you offering a commission. (E.g, I can imagine a commission for a wedding present for ones daughter, from a wealthy family).

But, of course, most people wouldn't pay that much even for a masterpiece qquilt, and we generally do these quilts for love, for art, for our own satisfaction and pride, etc.

But the fact remains that there are a whole lot of quiltmakers out there selling their skills, their products, some phase or another of the quiltmaking process, etc., etc., and they are, indeed, making money from it. There *is* a market out there.

The fact that some of you wouldn't want to be in the quiltmaking business and don't think you can get paid fairly for quiltmaking, doesn't mean there aren't plenty of people who would like to, and who are getting paid, at least as a supplemental income. I'm just trying to learn, research, and offer some business ideas whereby a businesslike quiltmaker can make a fair fee for his or her services.

Why discourage quiltmakers from at least giving a try at making money doing what they love? It obviously can be done. But like any business, it requires a viable business model. If you don't have any business sense in

ep

When I had a graphic design business, I charged by the hour after giving the client an estimate. Someone had advised to estimate the amount of time it should take an experienced designer to do and charge accordingly, eating the extra time of learning or correcting (providing, of course, that the final outcome was of good quality). In

I don't think anyone's going to pay that much for quilts unless they're outstanding, big-name, art or heirloom, and I don't think quilt customers are likely to be comfortable with hourly charges, but I'd use the same principle of figuring at an appropriate rate (not a beginner rate, for instance) for an appropriate amount of time and eating the time if I'm slower than I should be. And I would have an hourly rate for customer changes. I think it's really important not to undervalue the work--for my own self-esteem (I'm happier considering myself a learner than a cheap worker), for not becoming resentful of the time it takes, and for being appreciated by the customer.

--Heidi

I did that one time. A very wealthy granny wanted an heirloom grade petticoat for a porcelain doll's christening gown. She was happy to pay for the best; that creation was such a pleasure. Polly

"Edna Pearl" Sure -- if I a quiltmaker wants charge someone to do a quilt requiring the

Wandering down another road here - something that must be considered is sewing machine needs. We won't expect a customer to buy the sewing machine for you (wouldn't that be lovely?) but it costs me about $100 when I take a SM in for just cleaning and maintenance. Needles, silicone, lightbulbs (my lamp just ate one for more than $30). These little extraneous costs have to be factored in somehow or they'll eat you alive. Polly

In any "contract" or "free-lance" business, the business owner is responsible for the usual and ordinary costs of doing business, including equipment and maintenance of equipment. The SM and the SM's maintenance and repair are the quiltmaker's problem. That's an "overhead" expense, and business owners pay overhead.

An office-based business that charges by the hour (like a law firm), does not charge clients for its routine business supplies like paper, pens, staff, office rental, etc. All those are "overhead." A law office does, however, charge for photocopies, outsourced printing, hourly rates of professional employees (lawyers and paralegals) and many other expenses directly attributable to the particular client's project, which will vary from client to client.

The should hold true of a quiltmaker. This is just standard business practice. When I say that anybody must have "business skills" to run a business, part of such business skills is being able to figure out how much business muliplied by what hourly charge will cover overhead and make a profit (and how much profit).

These wheels have already been invented. Such business billing practices are very, very well established. You can go to the library and read books about how to prepare a business model for a profitable business. There's no reason to try to re-invent such concepts here. In fact, I have a book titled something to the effect of "How to Start and Run a Successful Crafts Business," or something to that effect, that I bought for a dime at a library book sale. And I happen to be familiar with a lot of this stuff because I was employed by law firms for about seven years and have run my own business (on an business model based on hourly billing) for about sixteen years.

ep

Also, books have been written specifically for quilting businesses, e.g.,

Bingo. The MOU I wrote left a space for the client and quiltmaker to agree on a minimum and maximum estimate. It also had provisions for halting work after the completion of any given stage for any reason (most likely, because one of the parties started being unreasonable about money or other demands).

Same here.

Same here. But I raised my rates every year or two.

Right. Standard business ethics.

I disagree. My client couldn't be more pleased with our arrangement, and appreciates how clearly I've laid out what to expect in writing. Hourly charges for quilts are all over the Internet. For example, go to

And I'm not saying hourly billing is the only way or even the best way, but it is a perfectly acceptable practice if that's the way you want to go. And a flat rate is just fine if that's the way you want to go. Or a flat rate per stage (which is exactly what a long-arm quilter does). Or "value billing." Or a mixture. All of these are standard business practices in quilting and other businesses.

The stuff about dishonest padding of time is a non-issue -- if a quiltmaker or any other business person wants to bilk somebody, they will be quite able to do so regardless of what billing method they use.

Well said. And the better you get at any business, and the faster you get, it's only fair that your rate goes up.

ep

Edna, I wasn't saying that people wouldn't pay an hourly, just that I believe they're not likely to pay $60 per hour unless my work was both known and outstanding.

--Heidi

Oh, I see -- sorry. I agree that $60/hour might scare some people!

Indeed, when a quilter reaches that level of expertise, the commensurate flat rate, which the client can readily understand, may be less scary to them than an open-ended hourly rate.

ep

The mistake was not realising then spend time "sewing" when nothing was actually done.

Some long arm quilters charge if a needle breaks, which unless it's caused by specifics of your quilt top that were pointed out to you and you accepted doesn't seem particularly fair. If you were unlucky, you could end up paying 10-20% more simply because of exactly when the needle broke. Some clients may consider that fair and they will work with that quilter, but many won't.

Cheers Anne