Ever have the feeling that something's just plain wrong? I was turning a piece today where I had to go up hill to go down grain, and I must have put the gouge in the wrong place ten times after pausing the lathe. Just gives you the creeps to be cutting up hill from the center of a bowl to the rim. Or from the rim toward the center on the back side.
Was pretty lucky, actually. It was a fully parted-off bowl with what was once a 2" mortise on the back, and no pillar in the front, as I normally dry my things. Just out of effective reach for the 1" jaws, but the 2" wouldn't fit after a concentric dry. Ended up turning a mandrel like they did in the old days, wedging into the recess, cut a really shallow groove to grip with the Power-Grip jaws in the face, got enough to hold, and was able to do the recess on the bottom without losing it.
Worst part of it is, it just looks ugly. No color in the raw, and oil doesn't seem to have done much for it. At least it was a learning experience, if not a creative one.
I don't have the same problem... I typically cut from the bottom of the bowl to the rim, that way I'm not cutting against the grain on end grain bowls (grain is parallel with the bed of the lathe). Also do a lot of cutting from the rim down to the center on the back, again, the cutting is "downhill". As much of my turning is end grain (norfolk pine, milo and other hawaiian woods) it just seems natural to do it this way. Of course, if you were taught differently, and more comfortable the other way, then do what makes sense to you.
I'm going to break with the standard school of thought here, and point out that a guy *could* use stain on a bowl... :) I've had a few hunks of mystery wood that were really bland and disappointing that came to life with some judicious staining. I know it's off the track for the current popular view that a turning can only be treated with oil, wax, or some combination of the two, but it's good to remember that there are a whole stable of products that actually work pretty well on the finishing shelves. I'll grant you that a person shouldn't take a nice piece of cherry or lacewood and slap a walnut stain on it for lack of foresight, but a bit of good fruitwood stain on something dull like boxwood can reveal some hidden grain and character that would otherwise go unappreciated.
I don't mean to get on a soapbox here (for those of you who don't know, that means I'm climbing on it now), especially as a relatively novice turner, but I do a lot of finishing at work- windows, trim, cabinets, doors, etc. and not once, not even one single time, has a customer requested that thier project be treated with a quick rubdown of linseed oil alone or anything even similar. They want their stuff colored and armored, so when the kids set a can of soda on the table, they can wipe it off with a wet sponge and don't have to worry.
It's a nice effect to simply bring out the beauty of a hardwood burl or some bird's eye or curly figure with a deep oil finish, but let's face it- not everything that comes off every lathe is a work of art, and sometimes the artful will of nature can use a little help.
Here's an example-
Not to pick on you, George, but why couldn't that be a creative experience? If something has the grain character of a sheet of paper when you've got it sanded and on that lathe, who is going to come and slap your wrists if you stain it, paint it, burn it with a torch or otherwise break with convention? It doesn't have to be practice or firewood, it can still be art.
I could be wrong in most cases, but I've got a sneaking feeling that I have had the experience that has led to this status quo- the first couple of times I did a woodworking project of any kind, I didn't know anything at all about the finishing process, and very little about wood in general. I started out with SPF lumber- because it was cheap, and I knew where to get it. It was hard coaxing even a square cut for a simple butt joint out of my tools because my hands didn't yet know the way, and after struggling to get something that looked half-decent, I figured slapping on a coat of stain was the easy part to finish it up.
Boy was I wrong. After all my hard work, my projects were blotchy messes. I had to paint all those first projects to cover up the shoddy finish, and for a long time, oil was the only thing I was willing to risk. I carried that over from the flat work right onto the lathe, and I've got a bevy of bland little bowls and other trinkets that really could have used some help that I didn't have the courage to give them. I didn't know about sanding sealer, washcoats, stain v. dye penetration or any of that stuff, I just knew I messed something up, and got spooked.
But being forced to work with finishes of all sorts for customers who don't give a darn about the nobility of the wood or the hidden beauty of an elusive figure- but just want the new trim or side table to match the stuff that's already there made me get over that, and I feel that the knowledge gleaned from that experience has helped my work improve, without any mystical karmic rebutte for my use of impure methods.
I know this is a long winded rant, but I've seen thread after thread about food-safe finishes, whether walnut oil or peanut oil or danish oil or paste wax is the proper finish, and even threads about how some wood is just trash because the oil doesn't do much for it. Add to that the occasional comment about how customer/friend/family member X had the audacity to wash a bowl in the sink or dishwasher rather than gently massaging it with the proper oil on a lint-free cloth to clean it, and destroyed it in the doing, and I begin to wonder. Have we so enshrined the use of simple oils that it has become holy writ that a true turner shall use neither laquer nor polyurethane nor stain nor varnish lest he (or she) be reviled amongst all good men, and cast out to wander the word forsaken?
I can't be the only guy that thinks it's kind of funny that a group of people who love crazy glue and epoxy, dishsoap and microwaves in the commission of thier craft, and will make their own tools out of anything from a used spoon to a ground down piston become such purists right at the penultimate moment. Is it fear- or am I missing something? Personally, when I think about eating out of a bowl I like the idea of a layer of inert plastic between my food and some wood that is mildly toxic (and some of them are...) or just bad-tasting with some glue on it! And as a bonus, that sucker can go right in the sink with the rest of the dishes when I'm finished. :)
Anyhow, I don't intend to cast scorn on anyone, or trash anyone's favorite method- and I mean that, truly. Any specific methods or products mentioned are just examples, not gospel. I've just been wondering about this for a while, and figured it could make a decent discussion. May have been due to turning weeping willow burl all day- it's a striking wood and fun to turn, but I have to say quite frankly that is smells a bit like piss, and I couldn't see letting my food touch the stuff without a nice shiny coat of poly over it!
Because the creativity on this was in the first turning. Wasn't enough wood left for me to make anything but minor changes. Score one for the 1 inch "rule" folks. Takes longer to dry than 1/2", but allows some re-styling.
Stain is something I've left because in the cross-grain orientation it absorbs heavily into the end and not the face grain. Looks unnatural, of course, but even worse, the particulate nature of the pigment also takes clarity out of the grain where it's not black.
I burn the edges of firewood splits, turn odd shapes and anything I like, from mushrooms through goblets, boxes, bowls and ornaments for fun, even turn almost every day.
Sometimes you just end up with crap. If it wasn't unusual to see an end-grain bowl entire, this would have hit the furnace which was its original destination.
It's the only way to avoid problems in that orientation unless the wood is particularly dense. As I normally cut with grain perpendicular to the bed, it just creeped me out. Do something a thousand times then change - well, it's unnatural.
I turn some pretty bland wood and I usually wet sand with natural Danish oil... If I'm sanding something kind of "blah", I'll wet sand it with the cherry or walnut Danish Oil to give it a little color and bring out any character..
There certainly is something to that, especially when making a functional vessel you don't want to poke holes in. I guess my thought was more that a stain or pyrographed detail could do a lot for it (sight unseen, of course) and doesn't necessarily require a structural change in the piece.
Ahh, here's the nub of what I was getting to. I've been wondering if that was the reason for the oil & wax school of thought. You know, a
1/2 pound cut of shellac over the piece before staining will even that out, if you ever feel like trying it again. Staining is nerve wracking to learn, for sure- just my idle curiousity at work when I was wondering if the easiest method got accepted as the "right" way to do it because of that.
I know, and that's likely the case with most of us- I just notice a strong trend (stronger in the Wreck than here) towards the idea that anything but an ancient food-safe oil is bad news. The whole deal is sort of tounge-in-cheek, as I've been guilty myself of falling into the same groove of thinking of the "right" and "wrong" ways of finishing things. I'm just playing devil's advocate, and figured I'd put in a plug for staining and polyurethane, as they are so often villified.
True enough- I turn almost all green wood, and I like to run the lathe sort of fast, so I've had more than my share of things explode when they dry out at 2000+ rpm. And I've made junk too- I doubt anyone is able to avoid that, it's hard to tell if something new will look nice or not until it's finished.
Shame on you. We know that polyurethane is the spit of the devil over on the rec. I use it all the time. Got the second coat of it on the duckling in passing after visiting a friend in the hospital this afternoon. Still ugly, but I have to remember that, save my excellent taste in women - she keeps telling me that - I am not the Lady Astor of the woodworking set. What I like is simply what I like.
Maybe I'll take a picture of him if I dig out the camera tomorrow. My day with the daughter for breakfast and shopping, but I'll do some wood later on.
====================== Mac, What advantage do you get by wet sanding with the oil rather than sanding first and then applying the oil? Is there some noticable difference in the final appearance or just a time and step saver? The Danish oil I use (Watco) instructs "flooding" the surface and allowing to sit for 30 minutes, then reapplying for another 15 minutes before drying all oil off the piece. This allows 45 minutes for max penetration. Seems to me that wet sanding wouldn't allow this much time for penetration. Plus, on pourous woods, like oak and walnut, the sanding slurry acts as a sealer/filler that can fill and dull the color. Do you compensate for this, or do you not find it a problem?
SNIP............. =================== This is something I've commented on before, but never got a definitive answer; when you use shellac or any sanding sealer, BEFORE staining or applying an oil, you eliminate wood penetration. It seems to me that a lot of the "pop" that comes from an oil treatment is lost because you're treating the sealer and not the wood. I've used stains and colored Danish oils mixed into other finishes to stain and finish in one step (just did a Danish oil and poly mix yesterday to quick finish a manzanita root project). Do you find a lack of color and contrast in projects where you seal first, then stain versus the other way?
Since I opened Pandora's Box, I'll be sure to answer you as definatively as I know how-
I've stained several hundred lineal feet of pine trim, as well as a dozen or better pine and birch doors using the 1/2lb. cut of shellac washcoat method. There is also the commercial "sanding sealer" and mineral oil method, but all the above mentioned were time sensitive, so the shellac was the way to go (think twenty minutes dry time as opposed to twenty hours)
What I found in all cases was that the washcoat did in fact even out the stain penetration, and prevented the blotchy look that often occurs with pine and birch. It slows the absorbtion of the stain into the open grain, and leaves a more uniform final result. The downside of this is that it changes the method you have to use to apply the stain. Normally, you apply for 5-15 minutes, and then wipe off, but with the washcoat, you need to apply it sparingly with an almost dry brush and allow to dry without wiping. In the case of laquer as a final clear-coat, you need to apply a second washcoat of 1/2lb. shellac to eliminate the possiblity of scaling when you spray it (at least with Sherwin Williams oil-based stains- the laquer seems to eat them.) Polyureathane, Shellac, or Deft seem to be okay without the second washcoat.
The lack of colors is to be expected, as the washcoat is minimizing the stain absorption in the porous areas of the wood, but I've found that the contrast is minimally affected. The wash coat doesn't block the stain, it just fills the large pores a little to even the color, and you'll find that the dense areas (the grain lines) respond virutually the same as on an untreated timber. I have used this method on standard trim pieces and bland turnings, so I cannot comment on something with (for example) a bird's eye figure that is best emphasized with an oil or natural stain. But on bland wood, it does bring out the sometimes less-than-visible grain patterns.
The grain can be obscured- but this has only happened to me in one case, when I was matching an existing color, and had to have the paint store increase the standard amount of pigment in a semi-transparent stain by a factor of eight. In that case, the stain I had to match had been painted on without wiping the first time, so obscuring the grain was the name of the game anyhow. What you lose in immediate "pop" is regained when you apply the clearcoat, at least IMHO. Overall, the method works well for me, and the customer has always seemed to be very happy with the end result. As noted in my first post, this may not make for high art, but it can add some visual punch to a piece that needs a little help bring it to life.
Hope this helps- If I forgot anything, I'll be happy to fill in the gaps.
Ken.. I used to use mineral oil to wet sand stuff, went to Danish when I was told that mineral oil isn't a finish.. *g* Basically, the oil keeps the dust out of the air, flows some of the sawdust to flow away from the paper and provides a little cooling... I usually start with the oil about 1/2 way "through the grits"...
I use the directions you mentioned in flat work, but not usually with turning...
I apply oil and let it soak in for a few minutes, then wipe the excess off, then sand until the oil is almost gone... that's usually when I change grits, anyway..
Before each new grit, I lightly apply oil, wipe it of with lathe running, and reapply to sand... I feel that this way I'm getting most of the last grit and any "dirty" oil off the wood and preparing the wood for the next grit..
When the sanding is complete, I oil and wipe off a few more times to sort of float any particles or whatever off, then brush on a heavy coat and let it sit for a while.. I could flood it with the oil and it will hardly absorb any, as I've pretty saturated it while sanding..
I set it aside for a few days and then buff..
I've bone dry and wet on pretty much identical things from the same wood and just seem to get a smoother feel and deeper glow when buffed on the wet sanded ones.. YWMV Mac
Thanks for the extended reply. This method is somewhat at odds with the "traditional" way I've always used, so it is interesting to hear other methods that also work. I had always thought of staining over sealer as coloring the sealer instead of the wood. I'll keep this stashed away in memory for the next "difficult" wood.
Thanks Mac, That sounds like the way I used to sand lacquer on cars. Water sanding down to 1000 or so seemed to make the surface better for the final coat. That wet down that you do between grits would take care of the slurry that concerned me. I'll have to try that.
Mac, Most auto parts places that carry body repair supplies will carry high grit wet/dry papers, but most are black. If you're doing light colored woods, they may not be your best bet.
Must be a better grade of paper or something, then? These were from Pens of Color and "made" (cut?) for pen work... Some are black, some gray.. they don't seem to leave any color on light wood or Corian, used wet or dry.. Mac
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