That's always fine advice, however logistically sometimes impractical. We don't have an overabundance of turners in this area, but I will take your advice and attempt to locate owners of the lathes in question before plunking down cash. That's my usual modus operandi anyway when buying virtually anything. As an aside, I've shown and demonstrated my current lathe to several turners with interest in that model. Thanks.
Max
Max:
If you took my post to be in any way a dig at you - apologies. I assure you that was not my intent. If you reread my post, read it more as an internal dialogue - put to print and posted - wondering out loud as it were. If you've read any of my other posts I think you'll see that I'm not one to belittle anyone knowingly.
My wondering out loud about those who think they can buy knowledge, skills and abilities via the purchase of the most expensive equiptment -be it a woodworking tool or machine, jewelry making equiptment, cars or anything else was the starting point of Why Go Big.
The rest of my wondering out loud may has answered my question. The class of lathes in the Go Big category all seem to be something with almost limitless possibilities - especially the Stubby. Of the various types of woodworking I've done, no power tool I own or have used is perfect, some being more limiting than others. The Stubby seems to offer the least constraints to woodturning - at least in the context of a hobbyist / amateur shop. Short of turning architectural sized pieces, its capabilities - built in - seem to offer the fewest constraints to turning just about anything one can think of. In today's world, finding an affordable "near perfect" tool is a rarity. Festool seems to be working on changing that for some woodworking tasks, but the Stubby seems to already be there in the turner's world.
Re: envy. I'm a woodworking tools phreak. I've got the time and enough money to buy what I want, or think I need. If it's under $500, that's often an impulse buy. If it's over five grand - well I'll do a lot of research before plonking down the money.
If you want to poke around my shop - here's the right half - the room of noise and sawdust. Haven't added the JET mini/midi and it's accessories to the right rear corner of the diagram - but I'm working on that update.
Again, apologies if my post bothered you. Look foreward to your participation in this group.
charlie b
Max... wow.... make that next cup decaf, OK? I don't mean to come off as arrogant, but it is clear that you don't care to give me the benefit of a doubt.
Step back... think... in context, my comment was no different than saying that I run into someone that has a 67 Mustang that they love and cherish, something they polish, sit in, tune up and just enjoy. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH PRIDE IN OWNERSHIP. If you like collecting and enjoy your collection, who cares what it is? Cars, tools, guns, who cares? One of my buddies has a year old Chevy truck that he never uses for anything but hauling his butt around, never, ever as a truck. So what? I can't notice that? He and I both laugh at his cowboy cadillac. He loves it, and that is good enough. I don't understand why he bought a truck instead of a car, but it is the same idea with the tools. Why buy tools you don't use unless you are indeed collecting?
You read an awful lot into that post, and I can only assume somebody that makes a living with their craft has snubbed you and hurt your feelings. For me on the other hand, I am the one that shows up on volunteer day with our club to help others learn to turn. FYI, I am also giving free lessons to one of my clients that is absolutely tickled pink to get some help. And if I had a nickel for everyone that asked me to "take a look at something" for them at the end of a job to get free advice I could retire. I even show some of them how to set up their tools as well as diagnose problems. Easy for me to do since it is my life; and some are so gratetful it is silly.
The only gripe I ever have with someone with a garage full of tools is when they try to pass themselves off as the next Sam Maloof. Tools don't make the craftsman, only time, commitment and experience will do it. Had you taken to the minute to inquire of me if I ever run into a home craftsman that puts out a nice piece of work, I would immediately reply to the positive. It may take some of the home craftsman longer to do some things, but in fact there are some that turn out better work than many of the professionals I know.
As far as helping out those that frequent this group, I do what I can. Between here and rec.woodworking, last year I had about 650 ON TOPIC (or at least pretty close!) responses to anything from someone asking how to set up an HVLP gun to shoot lacquer to installing crown molding on uneven ceilings. I am around 150 this year. I stay out of the politcal horsehockey, and pretty much stay only on the wood related stuff.
And I am really surprised that you would go after Charlie. That guy has been one of the most giving and helpful guys in a long time. A genuine enthusiast, he has always generously shared his work, his methods, his "oops", and has even posted diagrams and procedures on his website for all to see. Not to mention his detailed posts and photos... shame on you.
Maybe you should hang around here a little more and get to know the guys before you fire (misfire?) out with your pronouncements. I have never seen an honest question go unanwered when posted here.
I will say this... I did get a real chuckle out of the thought of being threatened... Not hardly.
One thing you learn in the tradess/crafts, is that no matter how good you are at something, there is ALWAYS someone better. Always.
Robert
I suspect the vast majority of us have seen no arrogance, surely none intentional in Charlie's or Robert's many contributions to this group of woodturners, nor had we seen such in yours. Just fellow turners with different opinions, some strongly held, from their different perspectives. In one thread X &Y disagree with Z, Next thread Y & Z disagree with X.
Most any personal opinion posted here will be taken as arrogance by someone. If offence is taken and posted it can lead to an apology or a strongly worded defence. Neither should be necessary and probably serve little purpose. It's uncomfortable when two net friends can't disagree agreeably. Someone will take this post as arrogant and condescending, That's not intended, it's just the way of the net.
Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter
Bill I am not a Stubby owner and since I was a mathemetician, I am not about to buy a lottery ticket. However, I have always considered the Stubby to be a good buy for its quality and design. Now you say that a lot of the parts are basically off the shelf hardware and electronics? Sounds like sound engineering practice to me, unlike a lot of cars and such that are made today so that only the manufacturer's dealers can stock them. Way to go!
Well said Arch. I might add, "relax folks and go turn a piece of wood." More and more I find that prayer and turning come together for me. Good for the soul, the mind, the body. Hard to beat. Relax a little before getting too uptight. Almost any one "sounds" arrogant or angry or whatever on the net at times. We do this so often that we forget we can not see the other person and thus lose a huge percentage of the conversation because tone and facial expression disappear. I know for me, as I find somethng that works I get so excited over actually getting it "right" that I must sound like the most arrogant twit around. Practice, practice, practice. Enough preaching. Be at peace with God and all men. Turn wood.
Very well said, Arch and Darrell. Can't improve on those two posts.
Robert
Much snippage
A couple of comments and then a fade back to lurking
Max apparently is going to follow advice that has been posted many times in this group regarding new tool purchases and indeed new tool purchases by those just starting out.
- Buy the best you can afford. Good sound advice and especially so when coupled with the knowledge that all the extras - chucks, jaws, toos, grinders, etc... can add considerably to the cost. I saw no implication on the part of Charlie that you were buying a trophy. However I've seen some that do, not in woodworking but in other areas. I've no trouble at all with the practice but prefer to see it as they are taking righteous care of tools so the next owner will have a quality and well maintained tool. fading back for now. Thanks
-Kevin
I re-read your earlier post this AM after seeing this post, thinking perhaps that I'd overreacted last evening. While I've always found your posts to be friendly and helpful, I still got the feeling of derision, and perhaps a bit of resentment, from your previous post. It did seem uncharacteristic. While you provided the other side of your take on amateurs in the above post, that earlier post was pointedly negative. My impression was that you'd harbored some negative feelings toward well-equipped amateurs. Please forgive me if I'm wrong.
While I've always been treated well by professional craftsman vis-a-vis, I have been denigrated by a few of the experienced turners in this NG previously. I don't carry grudges, and shook off the condescending comments at the time. For some reason, however, yours and Charlie's post struck a nerve with me last evening. My impression was that while attempting to glean information about better machines, two of the more experienced contributors here were making an effort to convince me that I'm either unqualified to own such machines, or a fool for considering them.
As you've made the point that that was not the case, please accept my apology and regret for taking you to task.
Max
I detect no condescension or arrogance in your response at all, Arch. Just a voice of reason, and I do agree with your statements.
Max
Perhaps it was my belief that you were implying my intent to "buy" knowledge and experience through the purchase of a superior machine that I found offensive. Nothing could be further from the truth. I've worked hard and diligently, studying, turning, reading posts in this NG, asking questions, and applying what I've learned in order to get to the level of skill I've achieved. My current abilities are nowhere in the ballpark with those of you who've turned for years, and I'm the first to recognize that. But becoming competent, creative, and productive is my goal; one which I'm confident I will achieve with time. Never has it crossed my mind that it's possible or desirable to circumvent the long learning curve with the purchase of expensive tools. I simply wanted to upgrade my lathe and saw no reason not to consider the very best.
Your post above has conveyed a tenor that leads me to believe I've misjudged you, Charlie. For that I'm regretful and offer my apology. I hope you'll accept that as well as my admiration of your tolerance for newcomers who spout off occasionally.
Max
While on this subject, does anyone know if Vicmarc also stocks replacement and upgrade parts in this country (USA)? Perhaps I should direct this question to some of the retailers.
Max
SNIP
Max: This kind of response shows why I like this NG, and don't participate much in others. Only a truly class guy would make a post like that.
On the net we don't have the advantage of looking at the person we are speaking to so we don't get the tone, body language, or a playful or even mad look one might have in speaking in person. The nuances of personal, spoken conversation often give a completely different take on same subject matter covered in writing.
I find that sometimes I will read something that ticked me off, only to look at it later and wonder why. I write a good deal of correspondence and reports for my company, and for me, it is easy to see what kind of day I was having at the time I was writing by looking at the choice of words and phrasing.
I try to be careful when I write, but also grew up in the telegram style of business writing as did my peers. Sometimes I can be too straight forward.
If you ever venture down south to sunny San Antonio, Texas, let me know. I have four lathes (1 Carbatec, 2 Jet minis, and a Nova 3000) and about 90 tools (a long story - I was sold many at a discount in order to see if I wanted to rep the tool) to play with. Coffee and wood blanks on me.
I certainly hope you feel welcome here and that you stay with us and post away. Glad you are on board.
Robert
Much obliged, Robert.
Max
One more comment which comes to mind...
Many years ago I drove a TR-3 and it, like most Brit cars, needed parts frequently. I carried points, plugs, tools to do the valve lash adjustment and adjustment of the SU carburetors, etc. The electrical parts were also very suspect (Lucas) so I kept several of these on hand... The dealer never disappointed me when I needed something.
At the same time we had a Pontiac and I waited for a Rochester quadrajet carburetor (a piece of junk) for 6 weeks. An aside -- in later years I discovered that that carburetor was made not only by Rochester but also by Carter and Holley -- they all made each others products -- GM's hedge against strikes and such. And I waited 6 weeks.
Years later I drove a Mercedes 240D. at about 175000 miles and maybe
10+ years I needed a rebuilt transmission and it was overnighted from Chicago.Where something is made is no indication of whether you can get parts for it. Think about parts for older Craftsman machines.
Bill
Maxpr>> Bill
Prince of Darkness!
Drove a TR-4 for a couple years and owned an MGB. Carried tools sufficient to rebuild the MG and a quart of LocTite.
Sometimes I find it useful to take a few days away from the newsgroup. When I come back, I seem to see things a little more clearly.
Some threads here turn into the old-style wrangling that used to be typical of nearly all the newsgroups. What went on in 'the wreck' was no worse than what was occurring in the Linux support groups and, I might add, is STILL occurring in the Microsoft support groups I've ventured into lately*.
So I filter the threads. If there is a protagonist stirring stuff up in the thread who isn't also a capable and frequent on-topic poster, I filter him, too.
I'm usually 'up' for an honest airing of facts, ideas and opinions. But when tempers flare and mud flies, it's time to quarantine the thread and let the emotionally scarred fight things out unseen.
Bill
*(In fact, XP is such a pain that I am seriously contemplating wiping it off my HD with a copy of Linux. I have a Toshiba Satellite A-105 S2031 and I'm open to suggestions. While the Linux on laptops sites don't report anyone having installed on this exact model, they do seem to have bracketed it fairly well.)
I also owned a TR-3 and carried similar spares in the trunk. Those awful lever shocks were the worst component, IMO. Always leaking.
Lucas: Prince of Darkness.
By the time I owned my TR-3 there was no shortage of aftermarket parts as well as factory OEM parts available overnight or even at the shop.
Bill--do you also sell the F600? I can't seem to find a price or photos of this lathe.
Max
I also owned an MGB as well as the TR-3. Guess I was a glutton for punishment, but they were great fun autos to drive. I finally sold the MGB when the kids in my neighborhood at college kept stealing the knockoff wheel nuts.
Max
I sold mine to my boss's boss. Damn fool put a $1000.00 sound system in it and then ran it through a car wash with predictable results.
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