Monica, you are talking about steeking a Cowichans styled sweater....are you thinking of making them as heavy as they make them here in the Cowichan Valley, (BTW that is where I live), from singles spun on a bulky spinning wheel? Wow you have courage.
If there ever is anything you want to know, about this kind of knitting I can go into Duncan and the Indian village and get info for you. When I do the textile demonstrations with school kids here, there are always a couple of kids telling me that their grandmothers have a spinning wheel and that they knit the special sweaters.
What a coincidence. Just out of curiosity, this morning I figured out how many stitches are in the knee socks I'm working on (approximately 48,800, probably more what with ripping out mistakes). It's a good thing I am doing them slowly for fun instead of working to a deadline. I have the needles to do a sweater but it may be a few years before I get around to it. I'll have to design it first.
Since when does anyone need to be shy around you? ;o)
BB, I'd like to read your blog too. I recently started one (a couple of weeks ago) and have only three things on there for now. Mine happened purely because I was trying to leave a message for my friend who Cher helped me locate, and it wouldn't let me unless I had a blog there too.... so that started it. ;o)
Els, you are a *darling*! ::hugs:: Thanks so much for the offer. Just don't rush right out to ask immediately - you know me and that procrastination thingy. ::snickering at self:: Well, I know it'll take me quite a while to do this. It's a major project for me. I wouldn't want you going to any trouble until I had yarn in hand, and more of an idea of the design. I still need to consult with my brother, for instance. I do know he likes cardigans better than pullovers, so that's one question down...but several to go. Plus while spinning, I'm planning to read Gibson's book a few times, so I have some more knowledge. But when I get fleece washed (it's getting somewhat sunnier, I should be able to do that soon without the poor things molding in humidity while they attempt to dry), and into spinning, then yes, I will take you up on your kind offer. Right now I'm envious - you *live* in the valley, ohh, I'd love to be able to see and *touch* some of those incredible sweaters. Trust me, I shall ask questions when I dive into it, and thanks very much!
LOL on the courage - yep, I'm going to try and do it as authentically as possible, spinning heavy singles. The wheel my dad made for me is very heavy-duty. Plus he made the orifice larger than usual, but also designed a little plug for it, so you could spin either heavy or fine yarn without problems. He also put dual grooves on the bobbins, and the flyer pulley has more than the usual number of grooves, which vary in depth. (yes, it's a double drive-band wheel.) Anyway, I can adjust it for *really* extreme tension changes. It'll spin from laceweight to very bulky with no problem. Although if do I run into problems - which will be me, not the wheel - well, I'll just have to cobble together a Navajo-style spindle and do it that way! The only problem on the spinning I really foresee is that I have this tendency to fall into spinning laceweight if I don't watch myself. Which I find hilarious, since I really don't like knitting super-fine yarns, LOL. I'll have to try and get back the feel for the very first yarn I spun. Uneven, but it would've almost been heavy enough!
As to the steeking - I'm *thinking* I'll have to make the sweater that way, but I'm not positive yet. I'm definitely knitting it in one piece...and with the color-work, would much prefer in the round, as I've only done stranded color-work precisely once. (yes, I'm taking on a lot. but hey, it'll be done on larger needles, should still go pretty fast... ::she says blithely:: whatever gets me the 3 sts. per inch without being loose-knit.) The other option, of course, would be to knit the body in one piece, no seams, by working back and forth, leaving the front opening and adding button-bands. However, then you get into doing color-work on the *wrong* side rows - which has me making eeping noises at the thought. And, of course, lessening the 'authentic imitation' idea. I don't think I'm going to launch into any really large designs, such as a thunderbird or similar. I'll probably tend more towards bands of smaller designs, like the Indians use for the accents. With large motifs, I could see me getting tangled up trying to weave colors I'm not using halfway across the sweater. Short floats are one thing. Learning to weave long floats is another. I don't want to drive myself nuts trying to do too many new things at once, and giving up in despair. (I know myself.) So I'll save more adventurous motifs for the next time, if this one turns out ok. I wouldn't mind having one, too. Even if I'd look like a perambulating bale of wool. But an *elegant* bale of wool, mind you.
So that's the plan so far, such as it is. ;) I'll be making progress as slowly as a glacier, I know, but it should be really interesting. And I will yell for info when needed! Thanks again.
If you get IT from the Navy Surplus Store, it will not have his name above the welt or a heart on the left sleeve to warn the girls to keep their hands off!
If you would like to knit dangerously fast, have your DH make you a set of
18" (eighteen inch) #00 needles from music wire, and a knitting sheath. that sits low on your right hip. You will find that with the knitting sheath, you will tend to knit a bit tighter than ever you have before. The long 18" needles make casting on and joining (without a twist) easier and you can flex the long needles to whatever position that you find ergonomic as you knit. After couple of inches of fabric is knitted, you can switch to 12" if you prefer the shorter needles. Remember that you can use those same long needles to quickly knit him matching socks also. Once you get a knitting sheath that really works, and you get learn to use the system, you can knit socks on long needles without them acting like mean spiders.
My current knitting sheath is 6" length of 1" maple dowel with holes to fit my needles bored in the ends. The knitting sheath is tucked into the belt loop of a soft leather tool pouch and secured with a heavy spring clamp. The tool pouch rides on a heavy leather belt that I secure around my butt. I find that I love a tool pouch conveniently at my right side.
Oh, and by the way. If you are going to be learning to knit with long needles, wear a heavy duck apron - and maybe eye protection. And, do not be knitting with long needles when kids might be coming close!
I am using Flamborough Pattern 1 from Gladys Thompson's Patterns for Guernseys, Jerseys & Arans using >BLUSH< Lion Brand Fisherman's wool. That yarn has 4 tightly spun plys that allow it to be knit very tightly.
I started with another yarn, and ended up frogging 20,000 stitches. Then, I swatched several other yarns. I decided that most modern yarns of that weight do not like being knit that tight.
Aaron, good for you doing all that research. I do know how it is to be very cold out on the water. Having sailed in Holland as a child, and all my adult life on the great lakes and the last 8 years off the East Coast of Vancouver Island.
The great lakes being the coldest place, when you sailed early in the year (May). It was not my body that was cold, but mainly my hands. Our first home build wooden boat, believe it or not was a replica of a Dutch fishing boat.....a Hoogaars. This boat has leeboards instead of a keel. A hoogaars, indeed meaning high at the stern, can sail onto a sandbank at high tide, sit there at low tide, while the men go fishing for shell fish (off the coast of Zeeland.), and sail away again at hight tide when the boat was afloat again. When you sail into the wind, and have to tack a lot, you do a lot of pulling up and letting down of leeboards. With cold handsas well as a loud voice, behind you yelling,: "Pull, Pull", no fun at all with cold, cold hands. At that time I wore a traditional Guernsey sweater. The yarn used for it was very fine and more than 2 ply and closely knitted. It fitted well below the hips with small slits in the side seams for ease of movement. Machine made, it was wind tight, and wonderfully warm. I used to wear a silk turtle neck from Eddy Bauer under it, these two fibers worked well together. This boat, did not have a pilot house, just an open cockpit. No winches but lots of muscle power.....me...Ha, ha. The rig was a gaf rig and there was always a lot of hauling-in being done. God fobid if you did not duck fast enough when you gyped. We did loose boat hooks over board that way.
Aaron I am with you on the technical explanations. I am still with you when you tell us that around the turn of the nineteens century to the twentished century, you knitted as fast as you could in order to make money to stay alive. I hope that you are not in the same boat, and that you have some time, to enjoy knitting your reproductions.
Monica I do not know about being a darling.....LOL,
I have to smile about your observation that you wished you could still spin, the way you first started to spin. I think most of us spinner moan about that problem a lot. Spinning a thick even yarn, as needed for the Cowchian style sweaters, is very hard for most spinners, even very well dyed in the wool spinners...LOL.
Why no make a ...... dare I say it ....."sample" LOL. Both for the spinning and knitting. You could make the samples big enough to try the steeking out. Great advice from someone who never had steeked in her life, and does not have the courage to cut into anything I have ever knitted. LOL
I will have a look at the book section in the Indian village in Duncan, see what is available, next time I go into Duncan. We have some material in our Guild library as well. The best samples I can think of are made by a local Indian woman. She comes with a jug of coffee and handmade Cowichan slipper, headbands and caps, to our little ferry terminal in Mill Bay, to do some selling to the cars waiting in line up. I do not know if she also hand spun the yarn, but I know that she knits them. When I will see her next time I can pick up a head band for you that would give you some idea on the thick ness of the yarn.
Keep us posted. It sounds like a great textile adventure to me.
Aaron thank you for your wide explanation , i am also delighted about Els adding her real life explanation. It seems that we look differently at the way things are reserached,,,, For instance , while you knit and counted how many stices you made in 2 months ? Did you also Keep house ? wash clothes , clean floors cook the dily meals? tended to a sick child? etc.... Or did your wife get up at night for the children? When you say 2 months , doid you stop to watch tv? read the paper , spend hours at your job. I hope also that when shopiing you walked to your shop [and didn`t drive , nore used dish washer or washing machine] , How many times did you hang your washing on line and run out to save it from the wet rain ?] If you realy research the "TIME" it took those ladies to make a sweater than you should have taken all those other considerations in account. Ps and don`t forget their In home light wasn`t as good as yours. Probbaly there were short sighted people who couldn`t work as fast. Your calculation is optimal.
Than in many of those voillages there were Widows or spinsters or other women who had no fishing husband + 5 sons,,, thus they could be added to the Knitting force .... I really admire your research, and think that your curiousity is leading you to try and find out interesting results. But we come time and again to the same point , You keep trying to impose FACTS on Different Historical times. Unless you reconstruct the working conditions of those women [ no car no washing machine etc, no proper light etc.. ] you can`t make such assumptions as to how long it REALLY took them to knit those sweaters... Also since every village or area had different patterns , you will have to knit an example of Each available pattern, and than make an average. Last and not least even the amongst the most experienced knitter there are Differences in speed , due to million reasons , from health to family problems to ??? I am sure people didn`t throw away their sweaters after a year of wearing it , They either patched it , many a time they probably wore one over the other, also clothes of the dead were worn by the sons, or brothers, thus you should take into your account that there were mnore sweaters in the use than the 6 you suppose one woman could knit. You also seem to forget that same woman did loads of canning food, Repairing clothes, sewing, some did weaving as well ... And i stand on my word that If you haven`t done your work in the Condittions those people worked in , than there is a big loop in your reasearch Which you should state ... You didn`t write in your leter that In IDEAL condition a woman could ..... I also don`t see any mention of Oiled cloth , which was a very comon addition to Fisherman`s clothes in those times. Not oiled sweater but Oiled cloth , which was a great cover against rain, and sea water and was worn Over those sweaters. Please note i am all for your resarch , i just am mystified at how easily you have conclusions while omitting some important factors. You also state in your letter that
Since at least one [very long ] war started about the rights to process wool , i think that it was [amd probably still is] quite a known factor, the Importance of wool . Also since the first Heraldic Shield given to Mercantile [ not nobles] companies was to the Shield Given in 1438 to the Drapers Company [ wool traders] , than in 1530 to the Cloth workers. Do you know where the word Capital comes from? it is Directly connected to the WOOL line of processing , from sheep to useable thread or cloth ,,,,, Thus we might agree that Warm clothing in general was [ and still is ] a very important comodity in world trade. in general and Said countries [ England , Hollnad ,Belgium, Scandinavian etc.. ] I keep asking you that when you do research , and esp when stating your findings , to explain that you did it in different conditions, which makes a HUGE difference to your results. You had no famine , ill choildren , pregnancy, [throwing up, being tired might also slow your knitting sped down !!!] etc... And last and not least ,, You have an indoor toilet, if you had to run to your Outdoor loo , How many hours did that take off knitting time ???? Having lived with an outdoor facility , i can tell you it adds to being ill in winter and slows down many activities. Thus i would be interested to know how many hours you knit ? how many hours you slept ? ate ? walked to work ? shopped , cleaned house ? etc ,,,, than i will understand your calculations of 2 months per sweater better .... thank you for the effort , mirjam
Ps Aaron I hope you understand, wish for your research to be more accurate, thus have all possible Facts. It seems to me you work in a kind of Labaratory conditions,,,, Optimal but not realistic. mirjam
Thank you Elsje for this important REAL life experience. I haven`t Sailed, [ only on a passemger boat]. Nore Do i live anymore in cold/rainy Holland. But i do Remember the COLD winter, when i Hated going out to kindergarten in FREEZING Amsterdam. [later i experienced Manchester UK Constant Rain, and Boston USA weather,,,, [ Brrrrr] But i come now from the Use of Sweater as Anti rain , anti water clothing item. In the 50s when we came to Israel , the Country had NOTHING, while it Absorbed hundred thousnads people , many of whom where Refugees who came with barely a torn dress to their body. Thus we had a time of Making do with what we had, and share it equaly amongst all. My mother enlarged my `trainings` by knitting edges to them, clothes were patched to last longer etc... It was quite common to wear a vest and a sweater, one over the other ,,, we also wore long Underwear, which helped our Sweaters and together they were Warmer. As i recall over the years of reading about clothes of Various Groups in Europe, [ not only in cloth/textile related books , but also in Sociology /archeology and even Etiquete books] Fishermen, Soldiers , Farmers in Europe all wore Underwear, many a time Long Johns. Thus i wondered when you wore the sweaters , what did you wear under them, because this is a BIG factor to amount of warmth one feels. People were aware for many generations that warmth is a factor of Layers , [hence Shawls , scarves etc..] Did you add a Nice warm shawl to you measurements. When i lived in colder countries, i always Felt that a Shawl on my neck and good closed cuffs and mittens, Made a BIG difference as to how cold or warm my body felt, More so that the thickness of the sweater!!!!! and Most important Covering my HEAD with a WARM hat .... You will be surprised by i researched it ,,,,,, Same sweater , less shawl/ mittens / warm hat wasn`t enough , once i added all this 3 IMPORTANT elements , same sweater was sufficient , since the warmth stayed on my body. mirjam
In article , snipped-for-privacy@actcom.co.il (Mirjam Bruck-Cohen) wrote:
Well now,...... you want to know what underwear I had on while sailing on Lake Ontario. (Indeed a huge inland sea.) When the winds blow from the east the fetch creates huge 10 to 15 feet high waves, ending up at the west end of the lake where Toronto is located. Our first boat, was not small, and our second boat was a 49 feet steel motor sailer, and this time with a sound pilot house. Still you feel mighty small when the wind starts to blow and you are far from shore. OK back to the clothing. Besides a bra and cotton underpants, I would wear corduroy long pants, warm cotton socks and sturdy deck shoes, a silk turtle neck long sleeved T-shirt, and the woolen Gurnesey sweater. (btw knitted with a 5 ply yarn) On my head a handspun, machine knitted Qiviut (muskox down) cap. ( I still have today) If it rained I would have rain gair over the sweater. This for Aaron in case he would say that the sweater is water proof. I found that I did not get cold when wet, but the sweater just becomes way to heavy, holding all that water. However I think that what you wear when you go out in the cold is a personal thing and different for everyone. Otto is never cold no matter how cold it is outside. He wears a cap during the winter time, but never over his ears. I will wear something over my ears first, before I worry about the top of my head. So what will keep you warm or cold is relevant to the wearer as well as the weather, and the clothing you pick to wear.
The recycling of worn clothing is nothing new. I grew up with that, and still do it today. There were 5 kids in our family, and I was the middle one, and unlucky me also the third female. I never had new clothes. Always the old things from my sisters. Dresses with indeed new hems, and old turned winter coats from my mother made into new coats for me. I remember having to wear my brothers underwear for a while for lack of proper underwear just after the war. There was one bike for all of us and it was a very old one at that. Still we did better than my Dad who grew up in Wien, Austria. They were just trerribly poor. My dad slept on two old stuffed chairs, shoffed together. He never had a bed of his own. When He came to Holland, he did his very best to make life better for us. Even though I remember that I did not get new clothes, I also remeber that my mother was great with creating and adding stitches and braids, so that it looked new. She was very clever with her hands, and yes she did have a treadle Singer Sewing machine. The memories are of nice clothing even if it was never new. When I came to Canada, Otto and I were also poor. With four handy hands we have come a long way. We both will pick up pennies, washers, screws, etc from the street. We are champion recycle-ists, and both find it a challenge. do so. To my kids shagrin, I still wear coat that they have discarded. I guess it is just a habit now. Old silly woman....LOL
Els, who is going to bed
Who is also wondering how Katherine is making out in Europe
As a beginning spinner I had to smile at this, especially since I love to knit with fine yarns and am turning out "novelty yarns" (not practising enough!)
From what I've seen they *do* knit up incredibly quickly. I've seen some of the local women knitting away while in the hospital waiting room and other places. Many of those who knit the sweaters carry their knitting everywhere.
I'd have to check but it seems to me the button bands may be knitted with the body of the garment........ Now you've got *me* curious too!
I am very fortunate that I can fish for fun and because I like fresh fish. I have very good synthetic clothing systems, so I knit for fun. I knit because my fingers need something to do or they get into mischief. And, of course a gift of a hand knit item carries more symbolism than any store bought item.
I love the outdoors, and grew up knowing the founders of modern , technical layered clothing systems, and I understand the physics of these systems. All of which leads to my point that since WWII we have depended on layered synthetics for warmth, and have forgotten the intricacies of staying warm with wool. We have forgotten that ski sweaters have different thermodynamic requirements from fisherman's sweaters. The designers at Patagonia and Northface remember this, but we knitters have forgotten. We knitters have forgotten that the firm fabric of a gansey had a practical purpose. We have forgotten the "decorative stitches on a gansey can have a practical purpose.
We have forgotten, that fisherman's sweaters were essential capital on a commercial venture. And just as boats had to be built efficiently and fishing nets had to be made efficiently, fisherman's sweaters had to be made efficiently. A lot of smart people worked on this for hundreds of years. Since WWll we have started to forget parts of this body of knowledge.
For example, 150 years ago folks knew how to knit for years and years without spoiling their wrists. That is still worth knowing. That is worth remembering. I am going to work out the details and write them down for everybody.
I was working backwards from accounts of fisherwives actually completing a gansey in 8 or 10 weeks (in addition to all their other domestic duties.) Likewise, I have an account of a ritual where a young man in the fishing fleet proposed to a girl, she was to give him her answer 2 months later, and if the answer was yes, she gave him a gansey with a heart pattern on the sleeve which was notice to other girls that the boy was engaged, and that other girls should keep their hands off! (The engagement gansey was generally knit without fittings as he was off fishing.) Then, the banns would be posted and the couple would be married as soon as she had knit him a new "Marriage Gansey." Since church records record the date of the posting of the banns and the date of the marriages, we know that most young women in the village could knit a marriage gansey in less then 10 weeks in addition to what other home duties they were performing, such as knitting for their brothers, and cooking. As a baseline, a trained, professional "Terrible Knitter" at the Dales in Yorkshire could knit a gansey on 5 needles in much less than a week.
We have some documentation of wool production and knitting for market. However, we have very little documentation of the hard work of knitting the ganseys that kept the fishermen warm enough that they could go fish, and made it worth while to fight wars over fishing rights. To misquote Churchill, "They also fight; who stay at home and knit." So, here is a capital factor flowing into fishing which has never been appreciated.
In one fishing fleet, at one time; the first year, the newest gansey was only worn on Sundays and to church. By the end of the year, a new "Sunday Gansey" would be finished and the old Sunday Gansey would then be used for everyday wear (fishing). Fishermen were generally buried in their Sunday Ganseys. Gansey were often so tight that working ganseys had to be cut off the bodies of the drowned, so the bodies could be washed and the Sunday Gansey put on for burial. The pattern of the gansey identified the village of drowned fisherman, and everyone in that village could recognize who it was by the gansey on the body, even if the features of the fisherman were no longer recognizable. I think we can speculate that not many ganseys survived their fisherman.
Oil skins (oiled cloth used as rain gear) are essential to my argument that cables and bobbles provided a "stand off" between the body of the fabric of ganseys and the oil skin. This standoff allowed ventilation to remove moisture from the fisherman's body that would otherwise condense on the oil skin and dampen the gansey. This moisture issue is more a problem for fishermen than for skiers, and is why real fishermen's sweaters are so different from real ski sweaters.
Remember the oiled cloth was sticky and smelled rancid. How would you like to wear a sweater that had picked up a bit of that sticky, rancid oil? I can tell you that I am going to take my historical recreations only so far. I draw the line this side of putting oil skins on over my clean gansey.
Aaron
"Mirjam Bruck-Cohen" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@ar.news.verio.net...
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