Semi-OT: Another lost lamb checking in

Good points Elsje ,,, I haven`t sailed , but Years ago we lived in a Agricultural place, and being pioneers we didn`t have bath rooms [ in fact those were used as Sleeping rooms due to lack of housing] . We all had to walk to a public shower. Thus even inwinter we walked to the public shower, showered there and than dressed in our plain sweaters , over which we wore our plain rubber raincoats,,,, And we weren`t cold...In those time many of us lived in second hand rather worn out clothes,,, No fancy sweaters,,, and we weren`t cold, as long as we wore 2 layers... The Thermo Physics is that even if you wear a Net under a Rubber cover , you will feel warmer than wearing only one very thick sweater,,,,, I have stopped driving several years ago, and i walk on a Mountain that forms a bay to the North , Thus Winds here are rather cool .... Thus i can vouch for this ,ANY Sweater in any pattern , under any Rain proofed materila , is WARM , or rather keeps My warmth in , and Outer Cold OUT.... mirjam

Since i wash all my sweaters By hand , than dry them by rolling them up in a towel. [ and i should also say that i wash and dry by hand ALL my weavings] , I tell you that Plain knits [and weavings] DRY MUCH FASTER than elaborate knitted sweaters. Since i am checking the dryness quite often and several times a day ,,,, this is a prooven test , over more than 40 years !!!!! mirjam

Stange is it not, that we have these silly hick ups in going to websites. When I tried to look at Chers website, there was no way I could make the pictures any bigger than postage stamp size. Even with my computer glasses on, I had no luck in seeing it any better. Mouse must be on strike or something. Or the spider in the computer is fiddling with the bit s and bites again. (Oh I forgot, my computer is now just a very thin flat screen, no way a spider would be able to crawl in there. My old computer was a big huge bunker of a think and I had indeed a little black jumping spider going in and out there. There must be a childrens story there somewher, don' t you think...LOL

I tell you something much stranger. We are having a learning spinning day with the Guild tomorrow. Going through my unspun fibers stash, guess what I found. Ingeo fiber, soyfiber, tencel, as well as bamboo. I am sure that a friend must have given it to me, but I am totally blank on who. They are all going with me tomorrow, for show and tell on different fibers. If it was anyone here, while we were exchanging squares, a big hug for such a nice gift, I had totally forgotten about

Els

Mirjam, Last question first, Eddie Bauer is a upscale sportware outlet in the States and Canada. However, Eddie Bauer was also the name of my Father...No they are not related, at least not that I know of....LOL

When you take Aaron litteral, I can see that maybe they did not knit a sweater each and every year. That seems a bit regimented. I would think it reasonable that they knitted a new sweater, when it was needed, when there was money for the supplies to make it Just like we go to the store to buy new clothing when needed. The average life time for a sweater may be about a year depending on the wearer. But take yourself back to that time period, let say Queen Elizabeth 1 in England period. You live in a poor fishing village in Scotland, and you have many mouths to feed. Husband is often away at sea to make a living. I do see that it fits, the one sweater for working, and one for good. The working one gets worn until it comes apart at the seams. I am sure that that is how it was. The poor were poor, and of story. Food was number one, and maybe if there was money left over you had better clothing. I find some of Aarons explanations believable. Not all of them ...LOL but some of them. After all we have to have something to argue about while sitting in his favorite pub.....

Els

Thank you Elsje ,,, what a pity you aren`t related ,,,, maybe you would get some reductions ??? :>:>:> Yes i do take Aaron Literal , and i will explain why ... You and i know very well that People in those times didn`t throw out stuff so easily. We are also aware of the time and effort put into every item. I am concerned with persons reading this materials , who don`t have your or my bcakground, They will read it as it is written..... I have seen this happen too often. I had a student who tried to build a loom with a triangular warp ,, because he saw the drawing on Greek vases, where the Weight Warp is drawn as if it meets in the middle... I let him build a small loom and showed him how the weights tend to group in the middle, but have to be separated and strched aside for weaving. No way do i believe that a sweater lasted only a year, even with heavy work ... [on the contrary used to hear jokes that Dirt only strengthened it. Washing conditions in former generations were different and people washed clothes less than we do.

You see we are not that far apart in our knowledge and understanding. Reason says people would wear the New ones for church and family gatherings and than move it to working clothes status. I have no argument with Aaron i have a problem about the way he concludes some of his `findings`. As i wrote here i have students like this every year, who come with some of thids assumptions... Historical research must be done careful !!! We can not and should not use OUR contemporary Life circumstances as an only measure, to make such assumpotions. Even if Aaron used his own spun threads, their quyality was different than the wool shoren of sheep in former centuries,, Different food and grooming of sheep results in a different quality of the wool as well ,,,, Thus hew really should take wool from less cultivated sheep than the American or English sheep whose wool he used to experiment on . Less water more water , Adding better quaility food to sheep changed wool qualities,, etc.... These are thepoints that He should add to his letters,.,,, Always satete i made it with Wool sheared now of Sheep who grew in XXXX. As you stated People were poor , so their sheep were poorly fed as well ....thus wool was poorer ,, Soapd used to wash the wool were different , both for the fleece and the clothes,,, all these AFFECTED durability of everything .... I keep saying i respect his research i Just miss the Full scale of background material.

Internet seems slowly to become the world`s greatest resourse of knowledge, Hence each one of us adding information, should be very careful, to add information with as many background info and as accurate as possible. If we asume something we should STATE that it is our assumption , or our own found fact, not as if it a world wide fact prooved several times by seperate reserches. That is all i amtrying to do here. mirjam

In article , wrote:

Wow Aaron that was more than a sip of Ale, LOL. No I did not compare a traditional patterned sweater with the one I wore, As well you know. I did not have one. However I have to show you a picture of an hoogaars That was the boat we sailed on from 1976 to 1988. As I told you before, we had no pilot house the sailing, helming, and setting the sails was all done from an open cockpit. In good and bad weather. No we did not go out in bad weater, but we were often caught in bad weater. Lake Ontario can become spooky very fast. I hate fishing and have never fished in my life, even less under bad winter conditions. However I have been out in very cold weater, cold enough to know what you and I are talking about. I also think like a practical woman. Imagine having indeed to look after many mouths to feed, I would not go out of my way to knit fancy styled sweaters for every day wear. Certainly not when it has to be worn under those bad conditions as you just discribed. The sweater for "good" would be fancy, but that sweater was used for special occations, and when the fisherman died. No bad weater or fishing at those times. I think that the designs were made to make something special, that each little isloated inlet, no matter what country had their own designs. Just because they were Isolated. They did not write there knitting patterns down, they were mainly illiterate, and who would have had time to write it all down anyway. These patterns were passed on by word of mouth. I think (neither one of us will ever know for sure) that it was design, over technical know on keeping the body warm under oilslikkers, how to use patterns in sweater were created by the knitters. So we better agree to disagree...

The Dutch written history about the fisherman sweaters, states that originally they were undershirts, and worn under woolen boiled jackets (pea jackets). When the men got to hot or the jacket was in the way during work, they took them off, working in their knitted undershirts. It also states that the patterns were knitted in the middle part on the front of the sweater, since plain knitting was much cheaper than the knitting of cables and fancy stitches, It took way to much yarn to do that. Now if you tell me that the motives in the sweaters have symbolic meanings I would instantly agree with you. e.g. the God's eyes, which is a very old religious motive. These motives were knitted in to protect the sailor and bring him safely home. To me that makes good sense. Many of these motives had religious overtones. With so many lives lost at sea under terrible conditions, the turning to religion and even much older believes, stands to reason. Another explanation, one that even makes good sense today, is that men often mistake to front of there sweater for the back. So to make designs on the front of the sweater, was a help to get it on the right way. A family tree, (Irish) was another motive, That symbolized Father and sons, in the sweater. I think your theory is wonderful, but it is a twenties century theory, it does not fit in with the old fishermen, and the times they lived in.

Naturally that does not take away from the wonderful knitted fisherman sweaters. We certainly agree on that one

Els