Semi-OT: Another lost lamb checking in

Overal, after the second world war, I think that in the States and Canada there was a lot of use of man made fibers. It was new technology, and after more than 5 years of war, an economically moving forward in the Textile industry. Still I do believe that there were lots of people sticking to the use of cotton, linen and wool. With the oil crisis, going from bad to worse at the moment, it may be cheaper to go back to natural fibers. Although top of the line fashion houses use a lot of fine wool, good linens and tencel, cottons, rami, and other natural fibers. It is "in" today when you have lots of money to buy clothing made with or from natural fibers.

Aaron, going back 150 years people did not live as long as we did, were not as tall as we are now, and suffered from many problems of the misuse of their bodies. Hard physical labour, poor food habits, (even then, because they did not have the money for good foods) and lots of problems, related to hard labour. I am sure that that included to much knitting as well. Certainly because the knitting you have been talking about, was done to earn money. Tell me how they did not get problems with wrists and fingers. What did they do differently from us, who knit today. I would love to know about that secret.

By the way have you ever made a fishing net....LOL....I have, but not for fishing, but to do Filet textile work on.

Els

This is a dangerous assumption. (please note, I was born and brought up in the north of England, even further north than Yorkshire). The church ruling was that banns were to be called on the three Sundays before the wedding, so that if anyone knew of any reason why the marriage should not take place they could report it. On the other hand, long engagements were common, three years, five, even ten years for some couples, while they saved up the money to set up housekeeping, and sometimes while they helped out the rest of the family. It was not unusual for each adult child to delay marriage until the next oldest was earning.

Please also note: folk in Great Britain (and elsewhere) are notorious for giving long, involved stories to those who are looking for them - especially if the seeker is buying the drinks.

Olwyn Mary in New Orleans.

*** Posted via a free Usenet account from ***

Speaking of natural fibers, I saw a piece on the local news yesterday about a Minnesota company making shirts from corn fabric. Yes, the fabric is made from kernels of corn by a company in Nebraska. Anyone seen corn yarn yet?

True, Mirjam. A scarf or a shawl will prevent the wind getting down the back of your neck. This is why I love them so much.

Eimear, sitting here in a shawl and a quilt because it is chilly on this "spring" day

From the 12 th century on to the 18th century, various Irish and latter English were knitting piece work for export. There was a time when silk hose worn in the royal court of France was hand knit in Ireland. The rates were very low, and everyone in the family had to knit long and hard, to earn enough to feed the family. They started very young and knit as long as they were able. If their wrist went bad, their family starved!

Using long flexible steel needles and a knitting sheath, I find the entire knit stitch can be formed by pushing the RH needle with the base of the palm of the right hand to flex the needle and insert the tip of the needle into the stitch. The LHN remains almost stationary. The RHN needle retains some flex and the stitch holds the needle in place. Then with my forefinger, I flip the loop of yarn over the tip of the needle and with the base of my palm flex the needle again and the spring of needle carries the stitch off of the LHN. This is very ergonomic for the RH. With this motion there is no stress whatsoever on the right hand or right wrist. If the left elbow is kept high, then likewise there is almost no stress on the left hand, left wrist, or left thumb. The process is very fast and very effective. Your muscles simply can not move a knitting needle as fast as steel can spring! I have gone from being one of the slowest knitters in the group to being one of the fastest. The downside is that the process is as dangerous as having a pair of porcupines mating on my lap.

When I realized how tightly, the traditional fisherman's sweaters were knit, I realized those traditional knitters must have had a more ergonomic style of knitting. I was interested because folks on RCTY were complaining about their wrists, thumbs, and pinches. I have found one technique with long steel needles and a knitting sheath that places less stress on my wrists. I am sure that three are at least two other techniques that use knitting sheaths to reduce the strain on the wrist. When I get something that is reasonable worked out, I will publish.

Wool has beauty, and ...personality. If I have to go into extreme conditions for a short period of time, I would take clothing made of synthetics. But, if I have to live under harsh, cold, wet, conditions for a very long time, then I would pick wool.

Had to make a bit of fishing net to get a Boy Scout Merit Badge.

Aaron

Are you saying that Marriage Ganseys were commonly knit in 3 weeks? OK, a competent amateur knitter working 8 hours per day should easily be able to knit a fancy gansey in 15 days. That sure does not leave much daylight for other chores.

But, since I have several contemporaneous reports of 8 to 10 weeks for the knitting of a gansey, I will continue to use that range as a sustainable knitting pace.

Aaron

Jan I went to this website

click on "how is it made". Saying it in one sentence, this is how theyexplain the process. Plant sugars are removed from the corn, they are fermented, as done withyogurt, and from that state they make a polymer, called polylactide, thatwill be made in to the Ingeo (tm) fiber. The chemicals used are just aswith making Tencel, recyclable, and the rest of the plant materials arecomposted. Sounds good, and fits in with what I was writing this morning,that with the oil crisis, we have to find other ways to make yarns. Polyesters, nylons, orlons, acrylics etc etc, are going to be very costlyto make, and we are back to the old stand by's Ewe know what.....LOL Els

I have hear talk about it, it is called ingeo. <

You weren't "listening", Aaron :-) :-) I told you that many engagements lasted five years or more. That is plenty of time to knit a marriage guernsey. Also, others have mentioned that most of fishermen's regular every day sweaters were actually a simple rib. Those fancy, fearsome and complicated ones were more usually a special piece, demonstrating all of a knitter's skills, much as apprentices in the old guilds had to do a "master piece" in order to be considered a master knitter. By the way, most of the everyday ones were in dark colors for the simple reason that black and navy do not show the dirt.

Olwyn Mary in New Orleans.

*** Posted via a free Usenet account from ***

No i haven`t seen Corn cloth , but i have seen Bannana threads for and floor rags [washing floors] . mirjam e:

HEEEEEE EIMEAR LOOOOONG time no word from you ,,, Looking at shops we can easily see that people Crave for Shawls ,,,,, I live around the corner from a Campus ,,Our winter isn`t always so cold that one needs a coat ,, but every 9 out of 19 students has a shawl around his/her neck. Several of my friends have a very thin winter coat , but they always are well Shawled and scarved .... mirjam

The traditional (pre-1900) Guernseys and Jerseys had decorative stitching because the "decorative stitches" were highly functional. Those stitches provided thickness of fabric for warmth; and ventilation between the sweater and the oil skin rain gear. They were not "special pieces," they were complex constructions of wool that kept the man alive, and identified the body if he died. Fisherman's ganseys did not become special pieces, until later when other materials provided less expensive warmth. Continental fishermen may have used simple ribbed sweaters, but I suspect that they did not do so until after vulcanized rubber rain gear became cheaply and widely available (circa 1900).However, I can not be sure because I have not researched continental fishermen. "Fisherman's ribbing" does NOT work under a traditional oil skin. Try it! You WILL perish of wet and cold! The oil clogs up the fabric, and you end up with a sticky mess. And, fisherman's ribbing does not appear as a common stitch in books documenting traditional guernseys and jerseys.

In the fishing fleets of Ireland, England, Scotland, and Portugal, from the

14th to the19th centuries, any boat in the fishing fleet could identify the village of a drowned fisherman by the decorative stitching on his gansey. Anyone in a particular village could identify the family of a drowned fisherman by the pattern on his gansey. Thus, one purpose of the decorative stitching was to identify the bodies of fishermen, and ensure notification of the family. Related to this, is the tradition of new ganseys being worn to church for a year before being worn for fishing. This ensured that everyone in the village could recognize everyone's gansey. This tells me that stitch patterns on fisherman's sweaters were part of a long standing, complex culture that was passed down from generation to generation within families. Simple ribbed sweaters could not identify the village and family of the body, if a fisherman drowned. I conclude that simple ribbed sweaters were a commercial product that came latter. If you have a conflicting observation, I would certainly be interested.

Now, if you take me down to the pub, and you buy me a couple of pints o'the best bitter, I will tell you that very likely the lass did not start knitting for her lad until they were close to being ready to post the banns and actually get married. Yes, they might have a 5 year engagement, but she only started knitting his ganseys as the time for their marriage approached. Oh, I am sure she knit him socks, hats, nippers, and maybe underwear. But, would she be knitting him the gansey that would tell the fleet where to return the body? Not generally, because he was not yet part of her family. In the mean time, she knit ganseys for her father, and brothers because knitting had value, and it was her family that fished to feed her. And, should they come to harm, she wanted the fishing fleet to return their bodies (or notification of their death) to her village, where her knitting would be recognized, and the bodies thereby identified.

Aaron

"Olwyn Mary" wrote in message news:444840df$0$14500$ snipped-for-privacy@titian.nntpserver.com...

Leather patches were a common way of fixing the worn-out elbows on sweaters and jackets. I had a school uniform sweater and although, strictly speaking, we were not supposed to patch them the nuns ignored the fact that many people had leather at the elbows!

I think until recently more people wore hand-me-downs or "recycled" clothing. I was an only child but still had recycled clothes - dresses of my mother's that were cut down, dresses from other family members and friends. And they didn't stop with me: if they were still fit for wear they were passed on again. Mum usually did something with them (changing the trim, for instance) that made them *feel* new to me. However, I think the clothes one could buy back then were of better quality and finish and lasted far longer that the clothes of today.

Eimear

Yes Eimear that is another good point, we live in a throw away society. I think that that was also one of the point Aaron was making that if you just had one of each they were made very well, to last. I still use leather patches for Otto's favorite clothing.

Not only do we throw out sooner, but we also are not happy with just one or two T-shirts but we have many. More than we need, I am sure. That is how I often end up with clothing from our two girls. I also still shop at the Sally Ann. Otto got a wonderful Eddie Bauer shirt, for 3 bucks. Naturally I do get knitting needles etc from there as well LOL.

Els

Ahh we are sitting in the pub already...LOL, Cher you better come over and do some singing for us while we argue our heads off......

I have a feeling Aaron, that the knitting of Village and family patterns, was very common, However I also have a feeling that that they were not knitted with the thought in mind to know who was who after drowing. That may have come later. Initially I think that mother passed her knitting designs and know how on to her childeren and grand children, as well as to her neighbours or communitie. Communities were small, and not sprawling like they are today. Therefore they also were close knitted. The knitter of the sweater, may have knitted some of her hair in with the pattern, to bring her loved ones safely home. (Husbands sons and brothers and family etc). I still think that the emphasis was on living and not on dyeing. OK take a sip of your bitter (yak yak, that is like medicine...LOL) and come back with an answer.

Els

Thanks, Els, but I'm not able to get anything from that link but a blank page with a faint ingeo logo in the center. I'll try again later.

Sorry I missed the top part of your posting...must be the beer/ale and bitter fumes in the pub..LOL

I have to strongly dissagree with you about the warmth of the Guernseys sweater in a plain knit not being warm enough when you wear a slikker over it. I am indeed talking about rubber rain gear.

Nonsense, I wore just that, when we sailed on long weekend trips to the Statesand back over Lake Ontaria, to Toronto. Cold wet and windy, and hoisting sails, letting down and hauling up leeboards, unhooking jib booms, Fixing spinaker lines, and going in the rain on deck to turn on the gas....I stayed warm with the pain knitted Guernseys sweater with an rubberized slikker on top. Yes I sweated, and no I did not get cold or wet.

Your turn...LOL

Els

Did you compare the warmth of your plain knit sweater with the warmth of a traditional style gansey? Your statement below says that a plain knit gansey is warm enough for a recreational boater. I agree. It does not say that a plain knit garment fulfilled the needs of the traditional fisherman desperately trying to feed his family by going out in foul weather.

Did you go out sailing every week, year around, pretty much regardless of the weather because you had to feed your family? (Remember that cod and herring fishing in the North Atlantic were at their very best in winter.) Or, were you a recreational boater that did not mind a bit of rain, but stayed home when the lines froze stiff with ice? Did you stay on deck fishing when the sea streaked with foam, or did you go below to get out of the wind? Did you wear your wet gansey continuously for days and weeks and months on end, or did you have dry clothes to change into?

The elaborate construction of the traditional gansey comes into its own when conditions are at the edge of what is survivable. The elaborate gansey is

15 or 20% warmer for its weight then plain knit and it dries significantly faster, making it much more comfortable for wearing on extended voyages. That little edge of warmth allowed a few more fathers and brothers to come home, rather than perishing of cold, or getting cold and clumsy, and then drowning. And, then if they did drown, the decorative stitching on the gansey told whoever found the body at sea or on the beach, what village and family to notify.

I am coming to see the traditional fisherman's gansey as the great knitting masterpiece. For the first year, it was the fisherman's Sunday best. Then, it was his daily wear and work clothes. It was a survival suit. It was durable identification. And, finally, it was a burial suit. Do we knit anything that useful these days? Does anybody make anything that useful these days? Those ganseys really were masterpieces. Three cheers for the generations of women that knitted them!

Aaron

Thank you Eimear ,,,, I was so astounded to read Aaron`s assumption , that women needed to knit their husbands [and sons] a new sweater every year,,, My father has a sweater he wore a lot that is over 50 years old, I have somw 40 and 30 years old sweaters , I have met lately a Child`s sweater i made for my daughter that has been given to a friend`s daughters [3 girls] , and now is worn by her grandaughter ,,, all very playful girls .... mirjam