VERY OT: This s*cks (Rant enclosed)

vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from "Karen_AZ" :

]Here's an "is it just me?" thing. I wish we could have a NO vote.

so do i. but i've been pulling for Wesley Clark for almost a year now.

----------- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books)

(Jewelry) newest creations: ----------- The measure of the menace of a man is not what hardware he carries, but what ideas he believes.-- Jeff Jordan

I know, Vicki! And I do NOT mean what I just said about killing to be taken as a "slam" against military workers. I believe in having a strong, smart, well trained and well equipped military. (For one thing, boys learn how to make do without maids--they learn to cook and clean and wipe their own noses without a mommy in sight for miles.) And the ability to follow orders is a neccessity in the business of war. The time to think about it is not on the frontlines, fer sure!! But can you think of ANY other job besides the police where killing people is an acceptable/expected part of the job? And how do we go about preparing the executioners for doing that job? and how do we help them adjust to "real life" after their stint as possible executioners is over? These are *people*, sons and daughters, but they are being used and discarded as human weapons and lab animals for testing pharmaceutical company products.

And to any who don't believe the USA would test things on the military personel AND civilians there's a bunch of reading and viewing you can do. Try watching "Bikini Atoll". Sarajane

Sarajane's Polymer Clay Gallery

vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from snipped-for-privacy@aol.comeatspam (Sjpolyclay) :

]I know, Vicki! And I do NOT mean what I just said about killing to be taken as ]a "slam" against military workers. I believe in having a strong, smart, well ]trained and well equipped military. (For one thing, boys learn how to make do ]without maids--they learn to cook and clean and wipe their own noses without a ]mommy in sight for miles.)

i knew that - honestly. [i've been up all night, again] questioning authority is a GOOD thing [i'm a child of the 60s, too] but once you take the step to enter the military, you sort of have to leave most of that behind you. and that's what i thought you meant with " Its wrong to kill people for no other reason than because its in your job description to follow orders." because in the military, that's about what happens mostly.

]And the ability to follow orders is a neccessity in the business of war. The ]time to think about it is not on the frontlines, fer sure!!

okay - then we agree!

]But can you think ]of ANY other job besides the police where killing people is an ]acceptable/expected part of the job?

well, i don't know if i'd really put the police there, either. at least they don't start OUT with that in mind. most of the ones i know hope to avoid it all costs. and i think if you asked the youngsters in our military if they expected killing to be part of their job, most of them would say "no". most of them have job descriptions that don't have anything to do with killing [with the possible exception of the US Marines, and to be honest, i'm really, really glad we have them. when a job needs doing, the Marines get it DONE. in short work.] and MOST of them NEVER expected the US to EVER be part of a "first strike".

]And how do we go about preparing the ]executioners for doing that job? and how do we help them adjust to "real life" ]after their ]stint as possible executioners is over? These are *people*, sons and daughters,

absolutely. and i think the military is doing a better job with that problem now than they did 30 years ago. there were some lessons they did learn from Vietnam. and unfortunately, there are times [and people] when no matter what you do, it isn't going to work. and i don't have a solution for that, either. Jamie and i talked about it a LOT before she did the final signing on her enlistment papers. and you should have felt my heart drop when she was in school and called home to tell me about the "scenarios" they were working . . . and how many times she "died". and i sputtered something, and she said, "Mom, sometimes, doing my job right means i WILL die." [shudder]

of course, i'm of the opinion that ground troops should be made up of men over 50. those who DECLARE war should have to be the ones who FIGHT them.

----------- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books)

(Jewelry) newest creations: ----------- The measure of the menace of a man is not what hardware he carries, but what ideas he believes.-- Jeff Jordan

My brother is up in Washington right now, in some sort of training program to get ready for a trip "over there". He's in National Guard-- you know, the guys who are supposed to defend the country HERE, INSIDE US territory....

Unless things "over there" get resolved in the next month, he'll be leaving in early March. He's 41... 4 kids, ages 2 to 12. He "likes" the idea of going because his military pay is better than his civilian pay, and his family will have military health care and housing allowance benfits as long as he's on active duty. There is also a $400,000 insurance policy for them in case he doesn't come back (and they'll continue to be covered by military health care, plus other widow & orphan type allowances). He considers it a "win-win" situation.... This is the brother who was/is "my" baby.... Kaytee "Simplexities" on

vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from snipped-for-privacy@aol.comnospam (Kaytee) :

]He "likes" the idea of going ]because his military pay is better than his civilian pay, and his family will ]have military health care and housing allowance benfits as long as he's on ]active duty. There is also a $400,000 insurance policy for them in case he ]doesn't come back (and they'll continue to be covered by military health care, ]plus other widow & orphan type allowances). He considers it a "win-win" ]situation....

THAT is REALLY sad!!!!

----------- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books)

(Jewelry) newest creations: ----------- The measure of the menace of a man is not what hardware he carries, but what ideas he believes.-- Jeff Jordan

amen, sister!!! Sure would make it a little more real to them. But it won't happen because:

"Wait!! you mean risk my OWN ass? Next you'll suggest I actually pay for this out of my OWN MONEY!!! hahahahaha!!!" Sarajane

Sarajane's Polymer Clay Gallery

vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from snipped-for-privacy@aol.comeatspam (Sjpolyclay) :

] "Wait!! you mean risk my OWN ass? Next you'll suggest I actually pay for this ]out of my OWN MONEY!!! hahahahaha!!!"

if not, then send their OWN kids.

----------- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books)

(Jewelry) newest creations: ----------- The measure of the menace of a man is not what hardware he carries, but what ideas he believes.-- Jeff Jordan

Oh it IS a big show - I was really paying attention to the responses in the "audience" as I was trying to figure out where our congress and senate really stand on things - like Kenedy ready to blow a gasket over Bush's comments about heathcare for the elderly and the whole Iraq thing... and the whole Patriot act thing where opinion is obviosly split (and the really really dirty look Bush gave to the people who clapped when he said it was expiring soon - that was no soft teddy bear look - it was pure hatred and I think really showed a side of him he tries hard to hide). And it was interesting how 2 out of 3 of the young people in uniform they had there did not seem happy AT ALL.

And I'm SURE it was obvious to everyone that our two biggest concerns in the US are NOT war on drugs and keeping marraiges together. Sheesh. He does think we are idiots, doesn't he?

I never bought into that line either. I believe we went to war to make it look like we were doing something positive (which failed miserably) and while our attention was turned elsewhere, Asscroft did his dirty deed with the " USA Patriot Act".

All the groundwork for a totalitarian coup has already been laid -- most of it in the soi-disant "USA PATRIOT" act. All they need to do is start enforcing what they've put in place. If/when it happens, it'll happen so fast that all the handguns in the country won't stand a chance of stopping it.

Celine

Damn, the truth hurts. It's like getting a punch in the gut to hear you say that..... Because I know it's true.

Tina

I thought the one thing that came out of Nuremberg was that "I was following orders" does not exhonerate you.

Tina

"vj" wrote

The military does NOT prepare its members for adult responsibilities. Alaska has a very strong military presence, and very many of them come here to retire. Typically when getting out of the military people have a problem making decisions and plan, because they are trained not to. They are trained to do it our we and we'll tell you what our way is.

This is not always true. And there are civilian corporations that do the same. But not to that degree. The Army, of course, is worst for this.

Tina

"Sjpolyclay" wrote

"State of the Union", hah! Propaganda opportunity is all it is. Why watch?

Tina

vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from "Christina Peterson" :

]I thought the one thing that came out of Nuremberg was that "I was following ]orders" does not exhonerate you.

it doesn't. but you'd REALLY better know what you are doing if you try to invoke it.

----------- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books)

(Jewelry) newest creations: ----------- The measure of the menace of a man is not what hardware he carries, but what ideas he believes.-- Jeff Jordan

]from "Christina Peterson" ] : ] ]]I thought the one thing that came out of Nuremberg was that "I was following ]]orders" does not exhonerate you. ] ]it doesn't. ]but you'd REALLY better know what you are doing if you try to invoke ]it. that was a simplistic answer, Tina, and you deserve better.

for example: some of the incidents in Vietnam would have fallen under that heading - refusing to participate in the massacre of a village would *probably* qualify - IF you were sure that the orders were illegal.

BUT - and here's the hangup - if it turns out the orders WERE legal and you simply didn't have enough information, you find yourself in Leavenworth for the rest of your life.

and really - - the military can't afford to do it any other way. if every soldier/sailor questioned every order they didn't like, nothing would ever get done - even the good things.

so - if you're of that mindset, your best option is to stay away from military service to start with. or become a conscientious objector, which some have done. or, of course, take your chances with a military court.

----------- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books)

(Jewelry) newest creations: ----------- The measure of the menace of a man is not what hardware he carries, but what ideas he believes.-- Jeff Jordan

A thing that bugs me about military benefits is that the people who deserve them don't get them - the crippled and mentally traumatized. The way Agent Orange was dealt with (they hoped) was to deny all the damage done, leave their soldiers untreated, and hope they die off soon.

While on the other hand, kids go into the military, "retire" in their 30s, use there seniority to work or the state or federal gov't, transferring their seniority, and double triple or even quadruple dipping.

Tina

vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from "Christina Peterson" :

] While on the other hand, kids go into the military, "retire" in their 30s, ]use there seniority to work or the state or federal gov't, transferring ]their seniority, and double triple or even quadruple dipping.

if they were willing to put in their time, protecting me and mine [in whatever capacity] i don't have a problem with it, to tell you the truth. their pay while they are in is the pits. if they can turn that around when they get out - they should go for it. because all those years they were in, they put their lives on the line for me.

----------- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books)

(Jewelry) newest creations: ----------- The measure of the menace of a man is not what hardware he carries, but what ideas he believes.-- Jeff Jordan

Ahhh.. the old ('60s) "War is good business. Invest your son" poster..... Kaytee "Simplexities" on