Yes Trish , why wouldn`t you have a TURN ,,? interesting use of word and i will keep my right to have a turn as well ,,,,, >
I am sorry you didn`t even give me the respect to assume i did Google. i was telling a joke, as i remembered it, and it could have been left with that. But no some people have to TURN it into a flame war. Ok, so you take the example of a sari and wave it before my nose [so to say] and tell me a sari can`t be called a skirt , of course not, because a sari is used and worn as kind of Wrap around DRESS , or Jumper for that matter. And both the sari and the kilt are tradional clothes with Specific Geographical & cultural connections [ and both are loved by westerns who think nothing of cutting them up and use all this marvelous length to sew different clothings articles that have nothing to do with the original Sar or kilt ].... The matter of the Discussion here was , how another Culture or language uses a word of a former culture.... Now you do this all the time to my culture and language, and i don`t remember that i spoke so unkind to you about that ,, You say Halleluyah when it should be Hallelu-- Yah , you say Betnlehem when it should be Beth -- Lehem, you say Jerusalem when it should be Yerushalayim , You can`t even pronounce Haifa or LeHayim nore do you have a letter that is appropriate. You say Nazeret when it is Natzereth. You all call one of our seas the Dead Sea when it`s name is [ Yam Hamelach] = The Salty Sea, You call the Kinereth the sea of Gallillee..... By all this mispronuncing you are treadling over our traditions and culture... Do i scold you for it , NOi have to accept that this the way your Culture took over parts from my cultures and changed it, so you can better use it for your causes.
Well you might be wrong here, as otherwise how do you explain the Extremely great popularity of the Female form of skirt that evolved from the kilt, that comes back into fashion almost every 2nd year , or rarely leaves the fashion shops???? And it is considered all those GOOD things i mentioned about it .
Your Constant use of Mispronouncing places in my country, places in my Book , [ not to mention you calling my Holy book Old Testament , is a big insult that has caused ages of Sorrow to my people. I don`t think that calling a kilt = with a different name when it`s form has been adapted to a female highly popular Pattern of skirt is such a big insult . Reasonable recations would be a nod and a smile , maybe a shrug of the shoulder.
Since the problem here is not about an analogy between two clothing item, but the problem here is that many of you don`t realize, that there is OUT there a NONE English speaking world, that sometimes adopts an item from the English world and nicnames it with another name , more fitting to it`s own culture...and by respecting the source calls it by the source`s name `Scotish .` To call this an Insult is really a bit far fetched ,,,, .
Oh so now i am twisting things to the `bad` side ,,,, i am going now to comment to you something , about twisting things. Several years ago, you were Personally insulted as many people here openly and lengthly discussed and Accused the few Pedofile priests in USA ... there were all kinds of opinions, quite heated things were written, and you took that as a Personal insult and left this group with a big boom . At the time i tried to be objective reminded people that the offenders weren`t all the priests, but only a few ,,, the Flame war was high, At the time you , Who before that Used to join the Crowd who loves to Flame me , Wrote me a letter, in which you mentioned that only after this happening did you understand, how people in minorities , who are flamed by a group , feel . Now that you decided to come back ,,,, you again try to gain your `popular place` by joining the flamers ,,,,, please do think about that when you falsely accuse me of
When exactly and in whicj manner did i insult that Clothing item ?
I think i took the correction , and will remember it, even without your extra added insults. mirjam
I've no problem with folk who don't speak English. It's when English IS spoken and English words are replaced by incorrect "foreign" words; in Dutch you would refer to a kilt as a "Scottish skirt); in English you would simply call it a kilt. As to pronunciation of Hebrew placenames where the anglicised pronunciation does not match the original, here's an analogy - if I refer to Paris when I speak in English I prounounce it "Pariss" (English) and not "Paree" (French). And, just to complicate the issue, the French would refer to what we in the UK call Germany as Allemagne whereas the inhabitants of Germany would refer to their country as Deutschland. To bring a little light-heartedness to this, how about the Scottish town Milngavie whose name is pronounced "Mullgai" And, as a mere male, I still get confused over the difference between a frock and a dress!
Why shouldn't I? You had your turn, others have had theirs and I believed I had something to offer. Clarification, if you like. Not one person had referred to the origins or construction of the kilt and why it is absolutely *not* called by the name 'skirt'. Aren't you interested, Mirjam? Why can't I have a turn if you can?
If you *had* Googled, you'd have understood why it's not considered proper to use the term 'skirt' in connection with a kilt. If you'd read any of the kilt's history, you'd also understand why it's considered a frightful insult to call it a 'skirt' in front of a Scot, especially a male one.
I didn't. All I did was to explain what a kilt is, not what a different culture chooses to call it. Nor did I make judgement on any person except to say that *Scots of my acquaintance* are insulted if people use the term 'skirt' in reference to their national garment. Which part of what I said pointed my commentary directly at you?
I didn't wave anything before your nose. I used an analogy in explanation. What on earth's wrong with that? Please point out where I 'waved' anything with any intent beyond informing people? And for the same reason, a kilt can't be called a skirt: it has nothing in common with a skirt and more like the kind of wrap-around garment that is a sari.
I beg your pardon? I'm not interested in cutting up anything. I've never cut up a kilt *or* a sari, although I'm lucky enough to own examples of both. Why would I want to cut them up? I've also been lucky enough to have their construction explained to me by native wearers and I had thought this experience might have been helpful or interesting in the preceding discussion. You appear not to want to know how kilts and/or saris are constructed and seem to be offended that I might want to share that information with you. Fine. Please don't accuse me of intent that wasn't there. If I want to flame you, I'll certainly say so!
I *BEG* your pardon? You have never heard my speech and can have no possible idea how I pronounce or mispronounce anything. I think you are drawing a pretty broad stripe when you presume to tell me how I speak!
Woopeedoo! And I bet you couldn't possibly pronounce Bulahdelah or Wollongong or Pitjantjatjara or Mandawuy Yunupingu. And what's that got to do with kilts? I speak English and you speak Hebrew so there will be differences. We can learn correct terminology from each other *if we want to*.
The word for a Scotsman's garment is 'kilt'. I'm sure you'd be quite upset if I referred to the device that Israeli men wear on their heads as a 'little circular thing held on by a bobby pin'. It has a name and why not use the correct name in reference to it? Out of respect, I do. And out of respect, if you tell me the correct pronunciations for words in your language, I'll use those too. I certainly won't take insult as readily as you do!
Mirjam, you have been scolding people for using their native language here for as long as I've been reading rctn. You've scolded me plenty of times in very similar conversations to this one. Can't you stop scolding just for once and learn something instead? I feel quite angry at you for making such a bitter recriminating mess out of something that could have been informative and interesting. There are lots of Scots out there (Hello, Sheena) and each one of them has a proud traditional tartan. We could have been discussing that instead.
Well if you think I'm wrong, that's entirely your prerogative. I accept that you probably have a different reality. The female form is a skirt and has nothing to do with tradition unless it's constructed from a traditionally patterned fabric. So what? A kilt is a kilt and not a skirt.
Again, you don't know what I call your book or books. If you wish to make generalisations then please realise it's not fair to ascribe them to a single person. That is prejudice and stereotyping, both of which you say you abhor. I could as easily take insult from the execrable way you write in my language, but I don't. So what? That's got nothing to do with kilts either.
? I don`t think that calling a kilt = with a different name when it`s form has
You've got an awful lot to say about something you think is trivial. You don't think misnaming a kilt is a such a big insult? Well, good! Keep calling it a skirt, then, and don't give it a moment's further thought.
Yes, and a long time ago there were quite a few people here who felt that being upset over the word 'Exterminate' was a bit far-fetched. So what? We're talking about kilts.
Mirjam, that was uncalled for. That was another discussion, another time and had nothing to do with kilts. Nor does it today. The vast majority of the people here today would have no clue of what you're referring to and it's rude, unfeeling and downright nasty to bring it up now. Why revive an old argument in support of a new one?
So what? You were right then. You're mistaken now. Just because you defended me once doesn't mean I must defend you now when you're mistaken! It's not a war! It's just a conversation about what you call a kilt!
No. It had nothing to do with 'flaming' by me or anyone else. It was all to do with people who goaded you on purpose for their own fun. I apologised for that and I still feel sorry it ever happened. An honest disagreement has nothing to do with flaming. An honest attempt to try and explain a difference has nothing to do with flaming either. However, continually seeking and searching and examining people's honest posts in order to find some imagined insult... well, in my book, that's downright ugly!
Yes! I did find out what it feels like to be very much in the minority. It gave me an insight into how you must have felt and I wanted to let you know that. What on earth has that got to do with kilts?
WHAT? I have not got any 'popular place' here: it's not a competition! It's a forum where people can post stuff and I haven't posted here in years and years! I'm not 'joining' anyone, I'm just telling you what a kilt is!
I used to post, just as lots of other people used to post. I chucked a tanty and went away and now I'm back. I have actually stitched something recently and thought to pick up an old interest. So what? Geez, Mirjam, I'm not flaming you, I'm trying to let you know what a kilt is and why it's impolite to insist on calling it a skirt. If you want to keep saying 'skirt' then for heaven's sake, say 'skirt'. I don't care! Can I say 'little circular thing held on by a bobby pin', then?
The kilt is a male garment. It is more correctly a type of cloak and bears no resemblance to a skirt. Calling it a skirt makes it feminine. In the interest of learning, I was explaining to you what a kilt is and why it matters to Scots what we call it.
*Which* insults please? Let me tell you, Mirjam, if I'd wanted to insult you I'd have done a much more thorough job of it than simply posting some stuff about kilts. Oh, and I'd've been honest about it and said 'This is a flame!'
Thus:
BEGIN SMALL FLAME You have an unhappy knack of making people angry for no good reason and I don't want to talk with you any more. END SMALL FLAME
Now, would *any*one like to comment about tartans, their patterns, setts, or perhaps, the way to crochet or knit an accurate tartan pattern? Has anyone ever stitched a tartan pattern in XS? I've seen gingham worked very nicely in XS and often thought that maybe tartans could work well too. Never tried it, though.
Years ago, I saw a huge painted canvas called 'The Piper' and it had a companion piece called 'The Drum Major'. I had a fantasy that I might work one or the other for a piper friend, only I was too scared to change the Stuart tartan pattern to the Lamont. The friend has since died and I've never quite overcome the thought that I might possibly work his tartan one day. I think XS would be about the scale I could manage: NP is a bit beyond me these days.
It's all I can do to finish the little sampler I've got going at the moment!
This demonstrates exactly how much you strive to maintain old conflicts. You are harbouring correspondences from over five years ago and dredge them up here to what end?
I wouldn't have a clue what I or anyone else wrote five years ago. I don't care about five years ago: I'm posting about kilts now. You want to post about flaming, insults and resentment? That's up to you.
BEGIN SMALL FLAME I don't like the way you converse. I don't want to talk to you any more. END SMALL FLAME
OY!! The PAIN!!!! I stitched a Ferguson tartan teddy bear design for DD's FIL for Christmas one year. Talk about mind bending!! It might have been easier if the chart had been in colored symbols but it was in b/w and a total P.I.T.A. The chart was from a truly wonderful e-LNS (perhaps a b & m one too) from the British Isles -- Harvest House or something like that. They were always at CATS and I got several charts from them but the only one I have stitched is that teddy. Anyway, I'm pretty sure they have tartan designs for most all of the Scottish clans, even some Irish ones, too! They also have designs for clan symbols, mottos ........ lots of Celtic stuff. If anyone is interested, I'll be happy to drag my tired old Irish tush (just returned from Carnivale in New Orleans on Wednesday) into the sewing room and look for the pertinent info. As for stitching a tartan, it takes a LOT of patience. This is one of those times when you can't be off even on teensy little stitch in either direction. You should have lots of time and peace and quiet too if you want to retain your sanity :-). I should imagine that once you have the basic tartan "grid" set down on paper, it would be easy enough to turn it into a chart for any sort of needlework. It's getting it down on paper in the proper dimensions that would be a kicker. I could do the Ferguson tartan in a heart beat because I have hunk of the lovely wool fabric I could use as an example. CiaoMeow >^;;^<
PAX, Tia Mary >^;;^< (RCTQ Queen of Kitties) Angels can't show their wings on earth but nothing was ever said about their whiskers! Visit my Photo albums at
A man whose name I forget (but could look up if someone is interested) has developed a nifty technique for crocheting plaids. It's done in Tunisian/afghan crochet and it's a bit painful, but quite effective. Basically, the way it works is that you use separate balls of yarn for the vertical and horizontal colors. (Yes, if you have 15 vertical stripes, then you have 16 working balls of yarn at all times--the 15 for the vertical stripes, and the current horizontal stripe color. Not a very portable project!) Each row of afghan crochet is worked in two passes, and as you go back and forth, one pass is worked in the various yarns for the vertical stripes and one pass is worked in the yarn for the current horizontal stripe. The passes alternate, such that in one row you'll pull up loops in the vertical colors (switching yarns as you go) and work them off using the horizontal colors, and then on the next row you'll pull loops up in the horizontal colors and work them off using the vertical colors. You don't end up with huge carries on the back because you'll be dropping off a vertical yarn just where you'll need it on the next row coming back. The end result is that you've got just the right mixing of colors at the intersections between the horizontal and vertical colors.
Sorry, I know that's a somewhat muddled description, but the technique works very well. I worked an afghan in this technique and it came out very nicely. It's expensive (afghan crochet takes up a huge amount of yarn, though it makes a nice warm afghan), and I found it very hard on my wrist dragging around the whole weight of the afghan on my hook. For something the size of an afghan, you'd want to use one of the afghan hooks that has what looks like heavy fishing line off then end, as you really wouldn't want to deal with a hook long enough to keep an afghan's worth of loops! Even so, it makes the hook heavy. You could maybe work in more narrow strips, but only if you could join with some decorative element, as I don't think you could join invisibly and maintain the integrity of the plaid.
In cross stitch, you might be able to do something similar by using blends at intersections of colors, or working one color in the bottom half of the stitch and the other color in the top half.
I wouldn't mind an URL to look at, Tia Mary, but don't get up off your tush right now - I'm off to bed. It can wait.
Yes. I had a go at weaving a bit of the Lamont tartan in medicis wool. It turned out all right but was a sorry tiny piece and not big enough for anything, really. The reason I didn't attempt the NP pieces was the headache of compensating for the pleats in the kilt and the curve of the bagpipes. It was hard enough to convert the sett without having to imagine how it would fall in a pleat.
I've seen a few clan badges done in XS and could easily render my Lamont one myself. Dunno why I never thought of that before - it'd be a darned sight easier than tartan! LOL! Light bulb moment: it'd be even nicer embossed on leather for a sporran!
As a matter of fact before i learned weaving , i was so enchanted with tartans that i crocheted and knitted some vests that were based on the Tartan look. It took a lot of calculations and sampling , but was great fun. and a great Learning experience . mirjam
I happened to file it since , after joining most Flames and ridiciling attempts, you sent me a letter with so many Aligator tears, that i didn`t believe anyway ,,,, But it taught me another lesson about human behaviours. mirjam
I meant re-sent ,, but she has nothing to worry about both adresses sent it back to me ,,, pity it won`t hurt her to reread the letter she wrote than ,, mirjam
I've knitted tartans years ago. I don't remember it being extremely difficult. The thin lines can either be knitted in using bobbins or they can be embroidered on top after it's done. IIRC it wasn't terribly difficult.
I finally killfiled M simply because she regularly, whether deliberately or because she is incapable of understanding the nuances of English, misreads perfectly reasonable posts. I really enjoyed your explanation of kilts.
To follow up on your change of topic, some years ago, I stitched the McQueen badge and tartan for my uncle who was researching the family history. At his funeral, among other things on display was the framed piece.
McQueens are part of Clan Chattan which is made up of some of the smaller clans. The McQueen/MacQueen colours are quite dark, mainly black and red, with a thin line of yellow. One of these days, I'd like to get a plaid to wear as a shawl.
Being an unmonitored newsgroup, no one can be banned here. (if that were possible, most of us would be gone!!) It means using the settings of your own newsreader/email to ensure that you do not see messages/emails from a particular individual, (or that are OT or whatever) There are lots of people here who can explain how to do it with particular newsreaders---some of us have had lots of experience, but I'm not one of them. Dawne
When I think of a *beanie*, I think of that character from long ago - was it Howdy Doody that used to wear a beanie hat with a windmill type thingie on top? :-)) I always refer to the knitted hats mentioned as toques (sp?).
And when those people who don't speak English as a first language then set out to educate those of us who do, as to how we should speak English. Especially when their "correction" is wrong.
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