OT: Modest Clothing

=2E

In Haifa and northern Israel , we see a Phenomena , of Muslim girls with headkerchiefs tightly covering their heads, so that you don`t see one hair . But they wear , such tight jeans, sometimes with low belts, that it leaves nothing to one`s imagination. Now is this modesty? or somehow `playing between` the restrictions ? mirjam

And are all the Israeli girls modestly dressed ? Particularly on the beaches ?

I see the same thing here in some of the shopping malls. Tight headscarves, tight blouse and tighter jeans, inches thick makeup, all screaming "look at me"..............................And this is for the sake of modesty???????????????????????????

Olwyn Mary in New Orleans

I do think plain cheap comfortable clothing that doesn't display a lot of skin or make it nearly impossible to sit down or bend over without emulating certain female celebrities should be easier to find. But the fashion industry sells what's popular, and what's popular is skin-tight in some areas and non-existent in others, particularly if the intended purchaser is a young girl. It's *possible* to find or make alternatives without trying to find a polygamist seamstress, but many girls prefer to be fashionable.

Cheryl

I think young people everywhere find their ways and means of bucking the system. It's not wicked, it's just young people trying to be with-it. With me, it was red witches-britches (remember those?) With my DD it's... well, she hasn't reached 'that' stage yet (it's all I can do to shoe-horn her out of stinky old jeans and into something respectable for going-out).

I remember the discussions about 'modest clothing' and from memory, it began with various Mums commiserating about the total lack of decent, modest clothing for *little* girls aged ten and under. There is something that turns my stomach when I see such little girls bumping and grinding about as if they're seven going on forty-five! Look at department store catalogues: they're chock-full of adult garments down-sized to fit toddlers and small girls. The models in the photos are also quite skilled at 'playing' the cameras too, in ways that don't quite match with decency laws in most countries.

I know that children's fashions have changed throughout history, sometimes being 'special' to children and other times mimicking those worn by adults, but the fashions today just seem to be too overtly sexual to this aging housewife! My personal favourite is the low-rise jeans teamed with cropped tops that expose the entire kidney area and most of the butt-crack *in the middle of WINTER*!!!! (NB. It's winter at my place right now) Now, it's one thing for a person to choose to wear such lunatic clothing in winter, but it's an entirely different thing to dress one's small child in such nonsense. It's abusive!

Cheryl, your comments about school uniforms bring back happy memories of my Ugly Sister when we were kids. She'd cobble up the hem of her uniform every morning on the school bus (using great big black tacking stitches in her pale blue uniform skirt) and then I'd rip out the stitches and re-hem the skirt every evening (at Mum's request). We finally won by using an iron-on hemming tape with added animal glue. The big black tacking stitches wouldn't penetrate it and so, AFAIK, Ugly was forced to resort to the waistband-roll instead. Oooooh, she was a dreadful child! You couldn't *imagine* what she did to her school-hat!

I was very lucky in high school. Ours was the first modern uniform in Newcastle way back in the late sixties. We had a sexy teal-green dress

We also had flesh-coloured stockings instead of navy or black or, worse, white ankle socks. Sadly, this was before that enterprising woman invented pantyhose and so involved a suspender belt, which was loathsome. Anyway, it looked good. The only drawback was that the figure-flattering ensemble was teamed with a digusting navy blue velour

(NB. The girls from St Josephs, up the road in the other direction were afflicted with, not only a royal blue box-pleated tunic, but also a royal blue velour hat that looked as though they'd been modelled on that of some ancient cardinal in Rome. They were *dreadful*! Much dreadfuller than ours, I have to say. They had a perfectly hemispherical crown with a huge flat brim *and* they couldn't be frisbeed at all, but plummetted immediately upon launching. Which was good. Marist Brothers boys didn't steal Joeys girls hats! Heeheeheehee!)

It's for the sake of keeping the men who have made the rules -- old, Old, OLD rules -- happy.

PAX, Tia Mary >^;;^< (RCTQ Queen of Kitties) Angels can't show their wings on earth but nothing was ever said about their whiskers! Visit my Photo albums at

FLDS also believes it's okay for children to marry at 13. I wouldn't do anything to help support that bunch. They are not truly Mormon and there are shenanigans going on in that compound.

Modest clothing is all around. One just has to select it. I see my neices wearing jeans almost down to their you know what, with their belly out all the way to their bra. The selected those clothes instead of wearing something more ladylike.

I just ask, please don't support polygamy. It's just a horrible form of brainwhashing and slavery for women. They grow up in it and don't know better so think it is normal, but it's not normal to have more than one wife, especially if they are 14.

I swear I'm not trying to be rude or disrespectful.

I'm with you, the original reasons for polygamy have long since passed (at least the reasons claimed) and it would appear it is simply a method of suppressing women to a man's will and supplying old men who probably have difficulty getting an erection, with someone tempting.

I would just like to see polygamy finally exterminated.

The same way that Canadian girls dress on their beaches, or river sides .. mirjam

That was very realistic , Cheryl ,, but isn`t the question of what is or isn`t fashionable , now a Bit less binding than it was 30-40 years ago , when fashion designers told us what length skirts we were `allowed to wear ??? I think we as parents and consumers could Influence the fashion Industry a bit more , if took time to think about what is going on there and why !!! And on the other hand educate ourselves and our children to be less influnced from the INDUSTRY ,,, mirjam

And if it would be the other way around , one woman having many men ?? mirjam

So why single out Muslim girls ?

That too, given it worked the same way and old women preyed on young men. However, I wonder how many say 13/14 year old males would object to being used ?

On 7/2/08 6:44 AM, "lucretia borgia" wrote:

Umm - don't you think Mirjam's comment isn't necessarily a criticism of one group's modesty or revelations but rather a comment on the seeming incongruity of covering one's head/hair for the sake of modesty whilst wearing such shape revealing clothing? I didn't take this as a slam at the Muslim girls, merely a wondering at the seeming paradox. Personally, I think things like this are an interesting comment on society - are the girls indeed hoping to stretch the allowable limits? Do they see a contradiction or just following a literal guideline to not show their hair (one's crowning glory, and sexual enticement) to any but their husband, so the rest is okay as long as the skin isn't showing.

FYI, as I'm sure you know - not all Jews, or Israelis, belong to the same religious group or sect for lack of a better term. There are Orthodox, with sects within that large heading - such as the Hasadim, Conservative, Reformed, and Reconstructionist - to name the major ones. And our beliefs with respect to interpretation of the bible, dietary guidelines, modesty, mixing of the sexes in social settings, etc vary. While Orthodox women cover their heads (true, strict followers wearing wigs at all times outside the house, commonly with their heads covered with scarves at home) these same people follow stricter guidelines WRT dress than do Conservative or Reformed, etc. So, while my friends growing up, and now, are mostly conservative or reformed - they neither wear head-coverings (except in synagogue) nor follow "modest" dress codes - beyond their own personal style and comfort. And, growing up in South Florida - plenty of bare bikinis, and clothing worn - even to school. Similarly, I've seen plenty of Orthodox women and children at the beach in the NE, or in Miami, and if their heads are covered with scarves, they're surely not in bikinis, or for the women, they tend to be in very modest bathing attire - usually with some kind of cover-up over whatever = even in the sea. Heck, in undergrad school in Miami, I had Muslim friends from different places - and they had way different ways of "meeting" the dress rules. The Malaysian girls - always very covered. The Turkish girls - not at all - complete with tight jeans, shorts, and bikinis. Girls from the Middle East - a variety. The same as with my Jewish friends, etc.

Israel's beaches, like many in Europe, or the rest of the world - are full of bathers in whatever costume suits them.

The mising of cultures, and religion - in this global media world - is a pretty interesting phenomena. How people stretch their boundaries, or rebel

- teens being teens - is part of that - and I don't think Mirjam's observation/comment is anything more than that. Sadly, I'm not surprised you would choose to take the opportunity to make a snipe at either her or Israel.

Ellice

Sometimes I think it's less restrictive - I'm old enough to remember the days when someone somewhere decreed that skirts were going to be knee-length (or whatever) this year, and that's all you could buy.

But then I remember that although I can and do wear a wider range of things now - various skirt lengths, slacks instead of skirts or dresses (particularly all winter!) etc - I still find that if I want, for example, a blue blouse, I'm all too often right out of luck if that year all the stores decided to stock brown (and related colours)! That still happens! I hate shopping for clothes mainly because there's so little variety under the surface - certain things are still popular and still dominate the market. I think I just stopped being willing to buy what the fashion designers or the clothing stores decide is right, not that they are less rigid!

And the young girls still look all the same in their attempts at individuality, just like I and my friends did, no doubt, although today they undoubtedly show more skin than we did!

I'm showing my age if I say how unattractive that is, I suppose. I remember one girl who couldn't have been more than 12 - and who didn't have anything much to show off in fashions designed for a more developed body - prancing around proudly with her jeans so far down over her hips that her very skimpy underwear was showing! Oh, well, I suppose I pranced around proudly and fashionably in my day, too.

Many of the Muslim girls here who wear identifiably Muslim clothing wear long-sleeved shirts, jeans or slacks and a headscarf. I can't remember noticing that any of them had excessively tight jeans or too much make-up, although I couldn't help remembering that there was a time in my culture that only very fast or disreputable women would even dream of wearing slacks of any kind! Times and cultures change. Most western women now wear slacks, and we don't think of them as immodest or fast. Well, unless they're skin-tight or sliding off the wearer's backside, I suppose!

Cheryl

Mirjam wrote

The same way that Canadian girls dress on their beaches, or river sides ..

The way Saskatchewan girls dress on our river sides is usually extremely modest---ankle length pants, arms covered, heads covered---black flies and mosquitoes the size of small helicopters see to that.

Dawne

"Karen C - California" wrote

Why why why would anyone want to support these communities by channelling money into them???????

Dawne