I was in Woodcraft today with an eye for a new bowl gouge. I looked at a couple of Crown PM's. One had the Ellsworth grind, the other a straight across grind. The sales person told me that the straight grind is much better for the inside bottoms of bowls.
He also told me the flute of this tool was more open, similar to a super flute. The Ellsworth grind gouge has more of a V-shape flute. Really there was very little apparent difference in the flutes. Except for the grinds and the slight difference in flute cross sections, the gouges were identical.
Oops, one big difference, the Ellsworth grind was a full $20 higher in price! I didn't ask if David Ellsworth ground it personally. I couldn't believe the difference in price. Is it worth it? How about the flute profiles? Any noticeable difference in performance?
The clerk suggested that I buy the cheaper and use my Vari-grind jig to convert it to an Ellsworth grind. Comments would be appreciated. Thanks.
The Ellsworth Grind gouge is good because you have the grind to try to match. I didn't have much luck with just the Wolverine jig matching the grind, so I purchased an Ellsworth Grinding jig and made an insert to fit into my Wolverine tool holder to position the pivot point at the proper height and then set the proper distance. The jig matched the grind perfectly.
If you have a Tormek, in the July issue of More Woodturning I'll have a story on how to grind the Ellsworth grind on the Tormek. It gives a very sharp edge to the tool.
I personally think the sales person was wrong when he said the straight grind is better for the inside bottoms of bowls. The Ellsworth grind will cut down the side of the bowl and right on across the bottom to the center and remove that little nub in the center. I put off going to an Ellsworth Grind tool for years thinking it was not worth it. I now have most of my bowl gouges ground with that grind. It is excellent.
I *think* the flute grinding of the metal bar is the same - only the edge profile is different. If you have the capability, buy the regular grind and profile the sweep-back as you like - BTW, these days it seems all swept-back grinds are "Ellsworth" grinds. Kinda gotten to that Kleenex and Xerox conundrum for their makers.
Just a tip for when I buy my gouges in person - pull out a couple chisels of the make, size and profile you're looking at. Compare the length of the flute on each and buy the longest one. There is a surprising amount of difference between individual tools - I've seen up to 3/8" - pushing 1/2" - difference. (The longer the flute the more sharpenings you'll get before having to retire the tool.)
Barry, I am also a big fan of the Ellsworth grind. I also use a straight grind (actually it is slightly oval) for the bottoms of some bowls. On smaller flatter bowls, you can do it all with the swept back grind. I like the flutes up when going down the side, and roll the flutes more horizontally for the transition and bottom. You can ride the bevel the whole way. With larger and deeper bowls, or ones with more vertical sides and more square transitions to the bottom, the bowl sides and even the tool rest are in the way of the handle and shaft of the gouge. You can go down the side, but as you make the transition, the handle of the gouge will hit the top edge of the bowl, and you can't ride the bevel across the bottom. To get aroung this, you can ease the back edge of the gouge (grind it off) making a mini bevel. I use a 3/8 and 3/4 straight gouge, and I also have a specially ground scraper (3/4 by 1/4 ) that I use to make shear cuts across the botton. The inside edge is ground way back, and the tip is quarter round, almost square on the end and rounding into the inside edge. It is kind of like an inside bowl scraper. I just found out that the back edge of the swept back grind needs to be eased a bit. I never could get the inside of the bowl nearly as clean as the outside. At a recent demo by Larry Karlen, at the Umpqua Woodturners Club in Roseburg, OR. he mentioned that the way to get rid of those concentric rings on the inside of the bowl was to ease the back edge of the gouge. Those rings were driving me crazy, because no matter how careful I was, I couldn't get rid of them. Sure enough, after grinding the hard edge off of the back, the inside was much cleaner. Maybe some day, I will achieve my goal of turning a bowl that doesn't need to be sanded. robo hippy
Therein the real issue. A broader flute will give you a few extra degrees either side of centerline for cutting. It will also let the shavings roll better, clearing, rather than packing. Can be an issue with dry wood as well as wet.
Some people make their finishing passes with broad - fluted gouges of the forged or continental pattern to take advantage of that much longer edge.
I've got four bowl gouges from 1" to 1/4", ground differently, each for a separate task. I would rather let use dictate the grind than the opposite.
one and one I ground the edges back on for the sides of the bowl. These work really good getting the bowl ready for final sanding. Check out the P&N gouges before you buy. The flutes are long, and the prices are reasonable. You can put any grind on them you want. None of my family or buddies own the company or any stock in it. Glenn Hodges Nashville, GA
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