Politically incorrect but honest

With the sudden enthusiasm of a brainstorm I've been doing a LOT of research on woodturning in the past two weeks. My thought was that I would do one-of-a-kind bowls; get to travel in my 29' fifth wheel toybox with our Harleys to attend crafts shows; and pick up some cash to supplement my Social Security while doing work with wood (one of God's wonders).

So my wife and I attended a very large and impressive local association meeting (and joined). Their exhibit gallery had work that was just heartwarming to a woodloving person and intimidating to a newbie. They had a renowned husband/wife team doing demonstrations and that was encouraging. The folks were warm, friendly and the meeting was handled very well.

Here's where I'm politically incorrect without intent to hurt anyone's feelings. I noticed that that maybe 95% had as much gray hair as I which is all.

Why would that be? The cost of equipment? The labor time? The work made me feel my idea of making some money might never even recover the cost of investment (maybe $10,000 for all) much less the costs of selling at craft fairs. Is this just retiree hobby territory for 98% of us? Sorta like golf, with just a rare few making money?

Tom Nie PS This is my first post - ever! I feel like a virgin.

Reply to
Tom Nie
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Well, yuppies outearn even geezers, but those of a certain maturity are more likely to have been tinkerers and explorers of the manual arts than the younger set. Some even had the good fortune to receive some training and to develop an appreciation for the products of their own handiwork in school.

If your motivation is money, you tend to go where the most money can be had with the least effort. Unfortunately, there are a lot of lawyers and politicians out there already. Would that we could _un_employ a few more!

If your motivation is self-satisfaction, and you have the survival money earning interest in the bank, you see things like time as something to be employed in the pursuit of other objectives. With turning, it's certainly possible to pay for your equipment with sales, but you have to either cater to the market you're in, or seek a market for what you like to do best.

Moreover, as Aesop has it, old birds with white hair tend to hang with other old birds of similar plumage....

Reply to
George

Hi Tom,

Your last paragraph probably summed up the economics of the craft. It may even be a bit optimistic. But, who is to say that you can't work your way into that elite 2%?

Moving up the page. $10,000 is a hefty investment for a beginner. And you are likely right again. To recoup $10,000 you are going to have to sell of a bunch of widgets.

Your assertion that wood turners are a warm and friendly group is also right on the money. That is, to some of us, a primary reason we turn. Being a bit long in the tooth myself, and a member of that sea of white hair, has afforded me the opportunity to have checked out a number of hobbies. These are some of the things that has kept me spinning wood.

  1. The beauty of the wood.
  2. The thrill of creativity.
  3. The camaraderie with like minded souls.
  4. The chance to sell enough "Genuine, one of a kind, hand crafted treasures" to pay for the hobby.
  5. The opportunity to pass on some of that excitement to other fledgling turners.

Welcome aboard.

Ron Robinson East Texas

Reply to
Ron Robinson

George: This sounds more like a money-making venture than hobby or passion. If you are not getting into turning because you enjoy it, chances are you are not going to do all that well. It takes time to develop the skill. Most importantly it takes a certain amount of imagination - the ability to see an end product in a piece of raw wood; and then make it happen - to be successful. I think this is what drives a lot of woodworkers and turners.

Your estimate of a $10,000 investment is high - way high. My turning experience is part of an overall woodworking hobby. I have a pretty decent garage workshop and I doubt if my total equipment investment is much more than that. I started turning a couple of years ago with a Jet 1442. I started with the lathe, a decent set of tools, a small nova chuck, a new face shield (most important of all) and odds-and-ends. I doubt if my total investment was much more than $1,000 to 1,100. Yes you will have to buy a few more tools to prepare your wood but a good band saw, entry level (used) table saw, drill press and more odds-and-ends should get you started. By the way, the Jet 1442 is a good machine but there are many less expensive. Also, it would not travel well in our 31' 5th wheel.

RonB

Reply to
RonB

OOPs - I noticed the Re:......... when I hit the mouse buttton. George was responding to a previous message. Oh-well, whoever - it still takes a certain amount of desire and passion to be successful.

It doesn't require grey hair but it does appear to be common.

Reply to
RonB

Hello Tom,

Out of the many people turning wood, only a few are making a living from it. Most of those, who do make a living turning wood, do so by doing production turning; i.e., doing large quantities of the same thing, say salad bowls and sell their output wholesale. Another group that can survive, do production work for archetectural purposes or parts for furniture.

Richard Raffan of Australia is one woodturner who makes a living from his turning. He said that to make a living turning wood, you need to have a partner with a full time job. Richard made it on his own, but the trip wasn't easy.

When I retired in 1993, I had dreams, like you, of supplementing my retirement income by selling my turnings. I did this for about four years, mostly to craft fairs with a bit sold through shops and galleries. I did make some money to suppliment my retirement income. However, I finally did an analysis of my costs, my labor, and my income from it. In the final analysis, I was making about 25 cents per hour for all of my efforts. I did have fun doing it, however, most of the time.

I decided at that point, that I could make more money writing about woodturning than I could doing it. I started More Woodturning and probably still make about

25 cents per hour, but there are lots of perks. I've written three books and have written a monthly column for Woodturning magazine in the UK for over six years. I still turn wood and have a shop full of equipment, but I turn for enjoyment and to have something to write about.

Most of those nice people you met also turn for the pleasure of it and accumulate tools as money becomes available. They turn some beautiful pieces and many of them probably sell some of their work. But mostly they turn for the fun of it, not expecting to make money. I don't believe, however, you will ever make much of a living selling at craft fairs.

Welcome to woodturnining. Set up a shop and start making shavings, but don't expect to get rich.

Fred Holder

Here's where I'm politically incorrect without intent to hurt anyone's

Reply to
Fred Holder

Tom

I am one with a few less years on me and no gray hairs.

I am not of the tinkerer class and may be accused of being a reformed yuppie - but please be assured that I am in it for more than the money.

I am considering all the reasons why I do this and have realized that I could fill a volume of pages writing on why I turn wood - the last reason is the money - not because there is none to be had, but because that is just a nicety of the whole experience!

Welcome aboard!

Ray

Reply to
unk

In my case, (almost 59 and what's left of my "nohawk" is gray), I came back to wood working, mainly turning when I had the time and money to do it.. and I found that I had SO much more patience that I did 20 or so years ago..

I think that life experiences and such change your prospective on things like wood... you don't mind waiting for a finish to dry, you start enjoying the wonder of the drying process instead of trying to speed it up, you take the extra time to get something right instead of taking a shortcut or skipping a step, etc..

The cost of equipment is anywhere from $250 for a lathe and $50 for a set of chisels, to as much as you'd like to spend... the more you turn, the more lathe you want, the more and different chisels, sanding and buffing systems, etc... as in most hobbies, the list is endless...

I'll point out our plans, since we have a few things in common: My small lathe, a Jet mini, is in our 28' travel trailer and will be used at r v parks.. If someone is attracted by my working at the park and buys a bowl or something, then I've stayed at the park free that weekend... Same thing with my "main" product, wheel chocks/brakes... I make them for about $8 each and sell them for $25 each or $45 a set... I sell a set maybe one out of every 3 stays at a park..

It's NOT going to earn me a living, or even pay for my tools.. (I spent about $3,000 more so far this year, maybe more) but I'm meeting some nice folks and saving a few bucks on park fees... for me, it's not cash that matters, it's cash flow.. *g* We went to the coast last weekend and met a really cool guy that was in his mid-80's and used his Jet mini INSIDE his motor home.. lol He makes pens, which I've never tried, and we ended up trading 4 or 5 really nice pens for a couple of bud vases... and have another rv friend and great memory now.. YMMV

mac

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Reply to
mac davis

Well said. Your post pretty well covered both topics - woodworking and RV'ing. The real satisfaction comes for doing things you love and sharing your experiences with others with similar interests. If you try to make economic sense of everything you do - you will lead a very sheltered life!

RonB

Side thought. I do sell a few items and give others away. That is just plain inventory control. Ya' gotta get rid of some of your treasures or add floorspace.

Reply to
RonB

mac,

Help me - *g* and lol and YMMV - mean what? I'll probably think the question dumb when you answer.

I never thought of the lathe in the camper - just the Harleys. They're the only reason we bought the camper.

And "wheel chocks" - my God, that's creative. Talk about niche marketing! I'd love to see a picture. snipped-for-privacy@charter.net if you can.

What I hear you saying is that if I love turning then it'd be cheap compared to what those Harleys cost me - and I do love riding. My wife thoroughly enjoyed and was enthused after attending that association meeting. So, like the bikes, this could be something we both enjoy.

Tom

Reply to
Tom Nie

snip

I'm not Mac but the answers are: Grin, laugh out loud, and your milage may vary. Turning is way cheaper than scoots unless you're going to spend as much as you can rather than just get what you want/need. You *can* get away even cheaper than what Mac said, but I wouldn't recommend it. I would recommend getting a lathe with a decent swingover, or you'll be severly limited in the size of the bowls that you can make. Remember, free wood is good wood. I think the reason to turn is not just the enjoyment, but also to torture friends and family with all the bowls and widgets while waiting to see how much they can take without asking you to stop. %-)

Dave in Fairfax

Reply to
Dave in Fairfax

We have seen two campground turners during our limited RV travels. One each mini and midi-sized machines. One (Midi) was at the War Eagle Festival near Rogers, Arkansas. This fellow stored his lathe in the "basement" of his fifth wheel and had a pretty innovative way of sliding it out onto a pretty solid folding platform. As I recall the other just worked from a table.

I also read an article about a traveling turner who could attach his machine to the bumper of his motor home. With jacks down, that's a pretty solid base (if his wife isn't too heavy).

You can take it with you (within reason).

Reply to
RonB

Why would that be? The cost of equipment? The labor time? The work made me feel my idea of making some money might never even recover the cost of investment (maybe $10,000 for all) much less the costs of selling at craft fairs. Is this just retiree hobby territory for 98% of us? Sorta like golf, with just a rare few making money?

Tom Nie PS This is my first post - ever! I feel like a virgin.

******************************

Tom,

I think the percentage is more like 70% of all turners are retired or have day jobs. You'd have to attend an AAW Symposium to get a better over-all view and opinions. There are a lot of turners who make their living with the lathe, me included. It's not the easiest way to make money but it's the most fun. I don't do shows anymore but rather sell through shops/galleries. The better shows where you will sell a LOT generally cost $500(+) entry fee and you must have a booth to their specifications (usually must have 3 sides and decorated for the season or theme of the show).

We will spend $10,000 but we will get downright giddy when we sell your first bowl for $30! You can't live long enough to recover your investment because you will need a better bowl gouge, then a better sharpening jig, an extra chuck or two, boxes of sandpaper (you'll buy it by the pound!) more finishes, etc. etc. So just buckle up and be ready for one great ride!

As to the age thing, well, retired people have more time and more money so you see more of them at meetings, demonstrations and shows. Aside from the long-time turners like John Jordan, Allan Batty, Stuart Mortimer, David Ellsworth, and a few others, the majority of professional turners are actually between 30 - 50 years of age.

And WELCOME.

Ruth

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Reply to
Ruth Niles

Heck I'm just trying to hang on to some of my hair

Reply to
Leo Van Der Loo

I've still got most of mine, but it's migrated from the top of my head to my ears and nose. Go figure...

...Kevin

Reply to
Kevin Miller

Reply to
Leo Van Der Loo

On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:33:13 -0400, "Tom Nie" wrote:

I'll toss in a young guy's opinion (I'm 26, though I'm getting gray already, so maybe it's just the sawdust that does it :) )

When talking with a lot of others my own age, it seems that there are several reasons why most of the folks who own lathes or build furniture are older. The three most common are a) that's what my grandpa does (in other words, it's evidently not *cool* if an older person can do something) b) My kids break everything anyways and c) Tools are too expensive. Not saying I agree with any of that (obviously), but that's what I hear most often.

Time is a factor, too. At least in the area where I live, a lot of people have kids when they are in their late teens or early 20's, and go directly to work in trade or factory jobs right out of high school. The only way for a young guy to make a decent wage in a factory is to put in a lot of overtime, unless they have a particularly generous employer. Add lots of manditory overtime to a couple of kids at home, and most people won't pursue hobbies, at least until the kids are out of the house.

Even if they do pursue something like woodworking, it takes a while to learn, and a lot of people get discouraged easily- my generation has been brought up to want things *right now*; just look at all the quick-change makeover shows (construction, cars, appearance, you name it) on the cable channels and you can see that at work. People start to expect that if the fruity guy, the girl with large... umm... eyes, and the extreme-sports fella with an accent can whip an entire neighborhood into shape in an hour and a half with some MDF and a caulk gun, they should be able to as well. Of course, reality usually interferes with notions like that when it comes time to put them into practice, and then people feel betrayed and give up without really having given it a good try.

I don't make any money from turning, but I have been selling some furniture, and am currently trying to use that furniture making experience to get out of steel work and into a good trim carpentry position. I figure it crosses over a lot, and it's almost as good as woodworking at home.

Another thought for you- and it may not be up your alley at all, but if you've got some money to invest, and are looking to make your investment back in spades, why not look into some of the millwork tools that Grizzly has got? Here's what I've come up with looking at it- the really classy millworks in my area sells 3" unfinished crown molding for $2.19 or more a lineal foot. You can get it in red oak, white maple, paint-grade maple, cherry, and douglas fir (not a huge selection, if you ask me!) The exact same place sells 4/4 S3S lumber in widths ranging from 3" up to 15" and better by the board foot. The lumber comes in about 20 different species ranging from basswood to purpleheart, including some that I believe would look really sharp as crown and casings, like hickory, ash and butternut (though your tastes may vary)

But let's stick with what is common for an example- a 4/4 x 9.375" x

8' piece of figured soft maple would run (at 2.30/bf) about $14.50. From that plank of maple, you could get 24 lineal feet of 3" crown by doing three rip cuts with one fence setup and three passes through the molder (figure 45 minutes for setup and operation, tops), and turn around and sell that for $52.50 (at their prices)- and you could offer it in any species you can find, many species are less expensive than figured maple, and they're just not milled for sale in the regular market without paying a huge premium for the *custom* order. You can get a 7" shopfox planer/molder with a power feed from Grizzly for about $1000 with shipping
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, a couple of sets of knives in different profiles, and you're ready to go (assuming you've already got a table saw) Figure at a minium, a person would want enough crown molding to finish one room (and probably casings and base shoe to match it, which would beef up the order even more)- One 20" x 15" room would need 72 lineal feet of molding (figuring in a little bit extra for joint waste,) and you're looking at a profit of about $114 for *maybe* an hour or two of work. (profit goes up a lot if you buy lumber wet from the sawmill, air dry it or stick it in a home-built solar kiln, and prep it yourself, of course, though there's a higher initial investment there) Wouldn't have to make too many sales to pay that sucker off- which means you don't have to make a full-time job of finding customers to justify the initial investment, and then it's (almost) pure profit from there on, at whatever level you care to work at. Then after you've put in a little time at making your spending cash, you can get back to your turning for fun guilt-free! I know it's a little OT for the turning group, but the subject of making money from woodworking to suppliment retirement income comes up a lot on usenet, so I figured I'd share the idea. I know I'm looking at it as a possible way to really make a good side income by selling it installed.

Might even make enough to support a bad woodturning habit with something like that... :)

Reply to
Prometheus

I love your thought processes. And there's a lot, I suspect, to your conclusions.

I worked long hours and ate a lot of $.99 hamburgers to get here. Lower management positions with two of the world's largest - GM & SIEMENS - and I sit with only Social Security because of division closings before vested. Times changed during my career - no more cradle to grave jobs.

Any additional long hours will be spent on what I love - wife, grandkids, us on our Harleys, sitting on my porch in the woods - and whatever I can come up with to pick up some additional cash.

At first glance your idea of molding sounds like too much dedication. And around here the $1 -2million homes use MDF crown, etc. so I question the volume of the market. I do know from building this house that if you buy molding from Lowes or Home Depot the cost is hugely higher than from a professional building center. Not that way on lumber or OSB, etc. Always wondered why.

More importantly, I've started down this woodturning path because I LOVE the look and feel of finished wood - turned or otherwise. No other idea has moved my heart with such intensity (I've just about been glued to this computer doing homework). Nature, natural things, are my path to the Spiritual.

I wish you the best in your plans. The only time I REALLY excelled was when I did something I loved versus what made me money.

Have a great day TomNie

Reply to
Tom Nie

Well, not completely missing, just not really followed heavily. I was making the point that there's some money to made there *without* worrying about marketing that much. Something like a $1000 molder wouldn't hold up to a huge-volume millworks anyhow- a tool on that scale merits something on the order of a flyer on the bulletin board at a laundrymat, or a working relationship with one small contractor! I guess perhaps I've just been lucky, but I've built one modest contracting job (I call it a job, and not a company because it was only me, and no tax ID or business name) and am in the process of doing it again. In both cases, I found one project, and ended up with more free word of mouth advertising than I even really wanted.

All valid points- and the reason why I didn't suggest quitting the day job and trying to put the local millworks out of business. When you do something like this on a small scale, it's not that tough to grab a board or two of each species, give them each a quick run through to test them, and *then* offer them for sale. Most things are not as difficult as you might think, it's just a matter of being aware of what you are and are not capable of- I'd never try and bid for a multi-million dollar shopping mall or the like, because it is just too big- same thing with this, you just have to know when and how to say no.

On the small scale, it's a lot more possible to reclaim scrap by hand sanding tearout or using it for a personal project- 30 or 40 bf can be pretty easy to swallow, but 5000 is a different story. The real problem that a lot of folks run into isn't materials and tooling- it's hiring help on without enough orders because they want the company to grow like a weed, and then trying to make payroll whether the company turned a profit or not- can't be in a hurry about that sort of thing, unless you're a very lucky gambler!

Reply to
Prometheus

no dumb questions in the world, Tom.. just those that are to dumb to ask when they don't know..

*g* grin *eg* evil grin lol laugh out loud YMMV Your Milage May Vary

Exactly, Tom.. and as plus, my turning got my wife interested in wood burning (a $30 hobby) and then pyrography, (same habit, unlimited spending potential), to decorate my turnings... Since then, she's branched out into pictures of folks, decorated name plates to hang on your rv when you're in a park, etc...

mac

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Reply to
mac davis

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