OT: Musings on the London bombings.

I realize that the UK authorities have not yet stated that the bombings in London were done by Muslims, but there are certainly strong indications that this is the case. My impression is that the culture that derives from being brought up in a Muslim religion, is one of male chauvenistic domination, and tribal loyalties - "I and my brothers against my cousins; I and my cousins against the world." In Western style democracies we are taught that we must spy on our neighbours, and cooperate with law enforcement agencies to prevent crimes being committed; or help the police catch the criminals by reporting anything we know; "Crime Stoppers" for example. This approach has not in the past, so far as I can see, developed in Muslim communities living in western democracies; Muslim authorities tend to discourage their members from spying on each other, and reporting things to the police. In the light of the London bombings, many Muslim communities have been quick to condemn what has happened. But words are cheap. Has anyone seen any reports, from either the law enforcement agencies, or the Muslim communities, of where Muslims are either actively cooperating with the police in spying on their brethern, or are encouraging each other to do so?

-- Jim Cripwell. From Canada. Land of the Key Bird. This creature of doom flies over the frozen tundra in winter, shrieking its dreaded call; "Key, Key, Key, Key rist but it's cold!!"

Reply to
F.James Cripwell
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Many local London Muslims (as seen on Sky TV) are volunteering to give blood & are well aware that the terrorists have again sullied their religion & made the law-abiding community a target for hot-heads etc. It's very sad. According to the spokesmen, Islam condemns outright this sort of terrorist activity, it is totally against their beliefs. JJ

Reply to
Quidnunc

Islam claim that they stand for Peace, and that it is just the fundamentalists that cause the mayhem. Which to me is something like never finding a German who would ever admit to having anything to do with the Nazi party, and leaves one wondering how the fanatics were ever allowed to gain the strength that they did.

Of course I realise that Islam is a religion and not a nationality, and I`m sure that most of them do genuinely stand for peace, but, again, they should prove their sincerity by more actively assisting their adopted countries to root out the terrorists.

Pat P

Reply to
Pat EAXStitch

Fair enough. But I am interested in a little more. Today is Friday, the Holy Day of the Muslim religion. The faithful will flock to the mosques all over Britain. What did the Imams say to the faithful? Did they tell them that it was their duty amd responsibility to tell the law enforcement authorities *anything* that might matter? Or do the faithful aleady know this and are fully cooperating with the authorities?

-- Jim Cripwell. From Canada. Land of the Key Bird. This creature of doom flies over the frozen tundra in winter, shrieking its dreaded call; "Key, Key, Key, Key rist but it's cold!!"

Reply to
F.James Cripwell

Jim! Could You please use the term Fundamental and/or fanatic ...., ,. It is very unkind and uncalled for to blame a whole group , for what a small part of fundamenatalists and/or fanatic / asocial persons do ..

This description could fit any group , of emigrants mooving into a new country, they will look out for each other, and feel that the Locals , aren`t acceprting them nicely,,,, there are allways some Jims around , to remind the New comers , that they are different, Thus they stick together. And it doesn`t help them feel better and accept the local rules more easily. and than it is like the question of the egg and the chicken ,? What came first ??? Less acceptance /more enclosure or more enclosure/less acceptance?

Western societies don`t teach you to spy on your neigbour, western societies , by being open and free, are also open to those persons who want to destroy those freedoms, and use the freedom to harm the freedoms of the other persons. Thus Democracies having less eyes, ears and other security measures than Non-Democratic Societies , have to rely on thier citizens to help watching out for those who want [after all ] to harm you and your way of life!!!!, it is like asking you , to take care of the road rules ,,,, you want drunken drivers off the road etc... >the past, so far as I can see, developed in Muslim communities living in

How do you know that ? part of the help that some of the people can give the authorities , can`t be revealed, because this sources could either loose their positions or their lives.

Reporting misconduct , like child abuse, stealing , or planning a murder isn`t considered spying.

Local Muslim groups , who mostly had nothing to do with the terror, wnd who even lost some of their members, should not be attacked , harmed or despised , for what was done by some extreme fanatics.

You have a cultural problem Jim... It is true that Fundamental extremists speak about Renewing the European ?Spanish Chaliphat[s], but i think you should have , taken more seriously, the Tape that was Published after 9/11, where Bin-Laden group ,,, declared,,, They will fught the west "till all the High buildings will be destroyed and the Aeroplanes stop flying !!! this is the clue to their plan....They warned all ,, and they seem to do it. They speak in terms of Gihad , of fighting the Crusaders ,,,,, It is a Cultural war. mirjam

Reply to
Mirjam Bruck-Cohen

Dear Lord in Heaven..............Is this not the pot calling the kettle black!!!!!

Reply to
Dorsey Clement

Reply to
Mirjam Bruck-Cohen

Reply to
Mirjam Bruck-Cohen

The trouble is, Mirjam, they (generally speaking) want all the advantages of their new lives, but aren`t willing to adopt the maxim "When in Rome, do as the Romans do". Not meaning that they should forget their own culture, but LEARN TO FIT IN. Of course many realise this and do just that, but too many don`t!

Pat P

Reply to
Pat EAXStitch

This is the nub of the question. My fear relates to how Muslims in Canada will behave if "push comes to shove". Will they be Canadians who happen to be Muslims, or Muslims who happen to live in Canada? Push has come to shove in the UK. How have the Muslim leaders responded? Are they urging all Muslims in the UK to fully cooperate with the authorities? Or are they behaving with traditional Muslim "tribal loyalties", and telling Muslims in the UK *not* to cooperate with the police and law enforcement services? We have ample evidence to show that with immigrants from European backgrounds here in Canada, when push comes to shove, they fully cooperate with the authorities. I am very converned that other cultures, particularly those based in the Muslim faith, will behave differently.

-- Jim Cripwell. From Canada. Land of the Key Bird. This creature of doom flies over the frozen tundra in winter, shrieking its dreaded call; "Key, Key, Key, Key rist but it's cold!!"

Reply to
F.James Cripwell

The religious leaders appear to be condemning the terrorists, but one can`t help wondering if that isn`t just for the benefit of the cameras who were allowed to attend one of the Mosques yesterday.

There are bound to be dissidents amongst them - that`s only to be expected. Many times terrorists may lurk for years as unsuspected "Sleepers".

There are so many of them in the country now that it would be impossible to round them all up and confine them, as we did to our German immigrants in WW2. So we just have to remain watchful and suspicious without panicking, for everyone`s sake.

Pat P

Reply to
Pat EAXStitch

Mrs PP,,, I understand your reasoning ,concern and opinion , but it shows a lack of understanding , other religions in general , anf Muslim in particular. It is an All involving religion. Do you remember when King Hussein of Jordan Died , How many of you wondered whu his Widow , didn`t go with the mourners to the Funeral? and i explained to you , that this was the way it was done. You all were so used to see the King in his Role as Westernized King , that you forgot that at home his family and he behaved according to their rules. Your demand , that they should adapt or learn to fit in , would have been more reasonable, if Historicly, the white men when he came to their countries , would have Fit in and behaved according to their Rules ,,, Now they took the Historical example , and when coming to the White men`s country, they would like the white men to adjust to them. mirjam

Reply to
Mirjam Bruck-Cohen

Your Guess Jim , is as good as mine, some people wil adopt the new country `s laws , to the letter, and some will stick to what ever their leaders [ religious or tribal] will tell them to do. You must also not forget that some still have families in the Origin countries , whose lives could be threatend if their Emigrating families won`t help , one way or another. We have a Wonderful Saying in Hebrew ,,, Kabdehu ve Hashdehu,,,,, when not sure about somebody , Resepect him and suspect him....Respect all his rights , but be alert to him. Since so many Canadians 2nd, third 4th generations of Emigrants , i thought you would have more patience for New comers ,,,, Learning more about their culture will help ,,,, mirjam

Reply to
Mirjam Bruck-Cohen

"F.James Cripwell" wrote (among other things I have snipped)

I was never taught anything of the sort, never taught anything like it to my children, and I don't think that spying on our neighbours is any part of the ethos of my community. Nor is "unquestioned cooperation with law enforcement"--look at the strength of the opposition to gun registry throughout much of Western Canada. . I did have a neighbour who reported "anything he knew" to Social Services, the city building inspectors, the Humane Society, the police, the parking authority---he was not admired and respected as a model citizen of Western democracy, but considered an officious old busy body who badly needed a perspective on reality. Dawne

Reply to
Dawne Peterson

My neighbors are Greek (the Cypress problem), Vietnamese(and what did they do in the war?), Irish(with whom did they side in the 'Troubles'?), Filipino (there are those fanatics in Mindanao), Chinese (fond memories of Chairman Mao?), Hawaiian (there's a nascent independence movement) El Salvadoran (ever hear of the death squads?) Scottish (he's actually tossed a caber...now THAT's dangerous), Pakistani (where IS Osama?) and African-American (and they sure have enough to be ticked off about.)

Which ones would you suggest I spy upon first?

(They DO pay their taxes and keep their lawns mowed, by the way.)

Lynda

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Sometimes I think war is God's way of teaching us geography." ..................Paul Rodriguez..................................... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Reply to
Lynda Wiener

"Dawne Peterson" ( snipped-for-privacy@sasktel.net) writes:

My instinct tells me to leave well enough alone, but here goes. Maybe "spying" was an extreme word, but in principle we are all required to help law enforcement agencies when they are investigating crimes that have been committed or crimes that are in the "planning stage". Martha Stewart is serving the last stages of her sentence, not for securities fraud, but for lying to enforcement officers. When new laws are passed, such as the gun registry, there is bound to be opposition. People must decide for themselves how much it is worthwhile taking action against the laws, and the law enforcement agencies must decide whether and when to act. In the case of the gun registry, no action has been taken. However, there are other high profile cases where things have happened. Henry Morganthaler defied Canada's abortion laws, spent 6 months in jail, finally won in the Supreme Court, and is either the devil incarnate, or a wonderful hero depending on your point of view. David Latimer in Canada and Jack Kervorkian in the USA are both in jail for defing the laws of assisted suicide. IMHO neither should be in jail, but our politicians have not been persuaded to change the law. In the USA it is almost routine for politicians to pass laws forbidding the burning of Old Glory. When this happens citizens equally routinely burn the flag, are charged, and the law is ruled unconstitutional. Attempts to change the constitution have all failed to date. What I am trying to get at, is that in western democracies, citizens are required by law to cooperate with law enforcement agencies; whether we agree with the law or not. If we fail to do so we can find ourselves in jail. If this involves giving information that lands our friends and neighbours in trouble, so be it. The UNA bomber was given away by his brother. Are Muslims who live in Canada going to obey this law, if "push comes to shove"? The way Muslims behave in the UK may well give us some clues on this issue.

-- Jim Cripwell. From Canada. Land of the Key Bird. This creature of doom flies over the frozen tundra in winter, shrieking its dreaded call; "Key, Key, Key, Key rist but it's cold!!"

Reply to
F.James Cripwell

I must say that we don`t go overboard in "spying on our neighbours", the only proviso being that they don`t appear to harm anyone in any way and don`t BLATANTLY make a habit of lawbreaking.

I`d certainly report anyone who I KNEW was claiming Benefits whilst working, and anyone who I KNEW was abusing children or animals. The capital letters are deliberate.

Pat P

Reply to
Pat EAXStitch

If I understand you correctly, you would hope that there would be Muslim community support for them to take it upon themselves to route out those for which they feel may be suspect and report that to authorities. That this would convey their willingness to belong to their new nation, rather than protect their own kind?

I'm not sure that any ethnic/regional group has done this in the past. Often times they mete out justice in their own terms. Or ignore it completely and get on with their own lives. I think it takes several generations before their ethnocentric pride is watered down enough. One need only look at metropolitan gang activities (black, Asian, and hispanic), or (further back in history) the Italian mob (now morphed into the Russian mob).

Dianne

Reply to
Dianne Lewandowski

Pat P

Reply to
Pat EAXStitch

X-No-Archive: yes "F.James Cripwell" wrote >

David Latimer's case has nothing to do with assisted suicide. Assisted suicide pre-supposes a *communicated* wish on someone's part for assistance in ending their own life. Since Tracy Latimer does not appear to have been able to communicate in any way, no one actually knows what her wishes were.

It seems to me that this law means we are obliged to respond to direct questioning, not necessarily that we are required to volunteer information.

emerald

Reply to
emerald

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