Re: Dear Red States

Oh lord! You're gonna be sorry you asked. I'm sorry already. Short answer as near as I can tell: because her doctors lie (according to her).

Elizabeth

Uh Huh !!!!

Oops. Okay. I see.

Donna in Virginia

Oh bullshit again, Karen! Show me where any Pope in your lifetime has said that!

Elizabeth

Didn't read the question very well, did you? Probably just as well.

Elizabeth

I'm absolutely flabbergasted that you can mop. I'm in much better shape than you are healthwise, but I pay someone else to mop for me and to vacuum.

Elizabeth

Maybe not in so many words, but the attitude is certainly there. Pope John started to make changes bringing the Roman Catholic church into the

A good example - The Toronto diocese used to allow altar girls and well as boys. When the latest archbishop took over, he told the girls that they could no longer participate. Part of his logic was the old one about only men becoming priests because there were only male apostles. Apparently he had never read or just ignored the parts of the new testament that talks about the women who were with Jesus and the apostles as they travelled through Judea.

MargW

It is remarkable how interelated problems happen when one joint is out of kilter, isn't it? I didn't appreciate until I injured a knee ligament a few years ago how soon the back started to hurt, because your gait and posture are thrown off. I know someone who has limped around on a damaged ankle for some years (largely her own fault, since she cannot decide which of the surgical options given her she wants to chose) and is now undergoing knee surgery.

I pass along the advice of a kind West Indian doctor who checked out my Xray after I fell down a flight of stairs onto the same knee early this year---"try not to traumatize yourself too much, my dear."

Dawne

I seriously doubt that Karen was attending law school under under anyone before Vatican II (the first Vatican Council did not happen in the 20th century) - she's not that much older than I.

Right, but that is an example from Ratzinger's time, not from Montini or Wojtyla, neither of whom ever suggested that women belong only in the home. And it is an example about a bishop, not about the Pope. In general, the Church has been working to improve the status of women within the Church:

Elizabeth wrote

The Dean who eventually (and grudgingly) became my ally was a good Irish Catholic. I don't think he felt dogmatically bound to send me home to raise babies. Most men, both faculty and staff, felt that professional education was not necessary for women, since they would inevitably marry, and should be the province of men, since men would make a lifetime profession of the law. In my experience, their religon or lack of it had nothing to do with it. Swapping notes in the years since, I found women faced similar obstacles in most professional or graduate programs, except those in traditionally female occupations like nursing or elementary education.

Dawne

I was raised in a good Irish Catholic home and I was always encouraged to excel academically and to follow my career path of choice. The Catholic Church in the late 20th century has much to answer for, but papal statements against women working outside of the home isn't one of its sins. I find it beyond ironic that I'm defending the Catholic Church, but I really just can't stand it when people make statements that are clearly factually incorrect and easily verifiable.

Elizabeth

Since when does a "feminist" refer to other women as "bimbos" or "school yard bullies?" You wouldn't know feminism if it bit you in the butt.

Elizabeth

I have never equated feminism with "acting like men"; some successful women have, unfortunately, adopted the same patriarchal attitudes that some successful men have, and are very far from being feminists. Some women pursuing what look like traditional roles, including stay at home mothers, are feminists to the core. I think that putting down other women for their choices, and using the same put-down words that have been all too common from some men, is the opposite of feminism.

Dawne

While I don't always agree with Karen - In this regard I think, she is more correct about the attitudes of the Catholic Church than you are. There was a movement towards a less restrictive church in the late 60s and early 70s which has been largely reversed under the last two popes. Many North American catholics do not follow the church's teaching strictly - the prime example being birth control.

MargW

"MargW" wrote

Just to put what I said in context, I was at law school in the later 1970s, so during the time the Roman Catholic Church was more liberal, although my Dean would have grown up in a time when it was less so. But whatever his religious convictions, he was prepared to recognize capability in men or women once it was demonstrated to him, whatever his pre-judgement was.

Dawne

Just speaking from my own experience being raised Roman Catholic in a fairly devout household (but definitely *not* "far right christian coalition", lest anyone get that idea in their head) during the 70's and 80's, I never encountered any attitude that women belonged in the home. Not from my church community nor from my very large, extensive Catholic family. Even my grandmother worked nearly her whole adult life, and because she wanted to, not because she financially had to. She was and is an absolutely amazing strong, modern woman.

Granted, I was miffed that I was not allowed to be an altar girl back then, but since that rule was reversed there have been sizeable numbers of female altar attendants at my home church. I, too, did notice a more conservative wave blow through the church during the mid to late 80's, but even though the priests and Masses became more conservative, the attitude about women never did. Perhaps my church was unique.

J.

Snif! I miss the 70s! There were lots of things allowed then that later got rescinded. I first served Mass in 1971 with my best friend, Christine. It was our (all girls) school Mass and so we asked for special permission to be allowed to serve instead of having to 'hire' boys from the school next door. Our excellent priest said 'Of course! What a great idea! Why not?' My DD has been serving since she was eight and is now one of the older girls on the roster.

The older I get, the more I've come to realise not all the ritual is so very important in fine detail. There's a lot more to it than gender and procedure etc etc etc. Too many good people have been lost owing to nit-picking and clergy getting stalled on insignificant issues. I still belong, though. Y'can't change things as well from the outside as you can from within.

FWIW, the *only* time my gender has been a problem in getting ahead was when I applied to Vet school. While my aggregate ranking was 95%, I was knocked back. Two friends (male, of course) were accepted, even though their aggregate rankings were lower. Mind you, it was a happy error: since I missed out on Vet School, I wound up doing Agriculture and then Zoology and Botany, which is what I really should have done in the first place. I've worked in mostly male occupations (ie. Agriculture/Biological Sciences back in the 70s and then Computers in the 80s) and have never had a problem, not one!

True enough, I worked at CBC in the 70s and even the union had the attitude that women had husbands and really only worked because the couple wanted luxury goods they could buy with her income.

When there was talk of a strike the union proposed paying so much strike pay to men and less for women because they knew they didn't really need it. It was a paradox because CBC actually had a high proportion of single women - what were they supposed to do ?

I also resented highly that a man making the same amount of money as me would pay $10 per pay cheque towards his pension and CBC would contribute $10 also, whereas I paid $10 and CBC only contributed $5 !

However, just then, along came the Status of Women lololol

Quite, I argued with a few I knew who tended to look down on SAHMs that they were doing what they wanted to do and that was a good thing. No rule said you had to go out to work, I worked towards women being able to choose, just as freely as a male, what it was they wanted to do with their lives.

Interestingly I still see some of this with regard to childless couples. My eldest grandson and wife have been unable to conceive and too often women say 'When are you going to start a family?' Does it never occur to them that is stepping in a mine field, giving hurt to them and offence to those who simply chose not to have children.

Karen's contention was "they had the Pope standing behind their pronouncements that 'woman's place is in the home, not the work world.'" I challenge either one of you to show me where any Pope is Karen's lifetime has made that pronouncement. I'm not talking about the attitudes of local bishops or the North American Catholic Church (which is far from monolithic). I'm talking about Papal statements to the effect that women should not work.

Elizabeth