OT proposed discussion: How did you learn to be a "woman" rather than a "girl"?

I learned it from a Mary Kay consultant. All of them are trained in showing you how to choose the right colors for your complexion, and how to properly apply it to make yourself look amazing!

Karen, Queen of Squishies

I learned 75% of my make up expertise in the theater. The rest I picked up watching my mom or my older sister or my friends.

One learning experience that I can recommend is to go to any make up counter where someone is paid to offer makeovers. Or call Mary Kay or Avon and ask them to come to your house for a facial/sample. These people will be very happy to take the time to teach you how to use their products. Of course, their goal is to sell you their products- but you do not have to buy anything.

I still hate wearing make up and only do it very rarely. But I know how to apply it without a spackling knife or looking weird.

-georg

My goodness. Let's see if I got all of that: flyaway hair, pimples, overweight and no makeup. Yes, indeed, sweet Tricia, you've hit the nail on the head. I wouldn't be tempted to hire anyone who gave the impression that she didn't give a happy hoot how she looked. I'd think if you didn't care about that, then you wouldn't care how the job you did looked either. That's a tacky criteria but first impressions are so very important. DH just paused by here and asked what was going on with the quilters today. I told him, and I told him my reaction. DH says, "You're a big help". Heck. What am I supposed to do? Tell you it doesn't matter? Nope. Let's Do something. Start asking women whose hair you admire who their stylist is. Try a couple. I'll bet there's one who can do wonders for you. And yes, make an appointment with your Mary Kay lady when you and she are unhurried. Those ladies know their business. We're going to get your 'best foot forward' if we have to bring a few gators and personally take over. We shall overcome. Polly

"Karen, Queen of Squishies" wrote >I learned it from a Mary Kay consultant. All of them are trained in showing

I know where you are coming from. I can't count how many times I have been asked, 'why don't you wear make-up, have you ever . . ., etc., etc.' On my wedding day at the reception, my aunt pinned me to the wall to put a little color on my face. I have always said I don't like wearing it but in reality, I was just never any good at it so gave up on it. My mom didn't wear any and told me the same thing about how I was perfect the way God made me! My dad wouldn't let me get my ears pierced because God gave me all the holes I needed. So I did it myself and he never said a word about it. My parents were good parents but not very good with what I was going through as a teen. Just a phase and all that. I just want to say that I feel that same disconnect between being a girl and an adult but it's not just about the make-up, that's just on the surface. These feelings for me are much deeper and at the age of 48, I wonder if I will ever feel like or be treated like a grown up since I don't much look like one and don't really behave like most adults I know. Life is too short to be so serious and I refuse to conform. Maybe that is the artist within, whatever it is, I don't know. But I have to agree with the whole hiring aspect, I don't look like people think I should and that can be a deterrent in many aspects of getting the better job!! I could write more but I have to go to my little peon job so TTFN....

Joan from GA for the moment

Tricia wrote:

I won't take offence. I think I know what you are stumbling towards, though it was never an issue for me in Those Days. I had an unusually stable family background coupled with an unusually peripatetic lifestyle, which lead to early but uneven maturity and a lasting ability to refuse to grow up completely! I've now given up growing up - that's a kid's game!

The make-up stuff is just practice and experimentation, like quilting. VERY like quilting! You find colours and styles that you like and experiment until you modify them to suit you, and then you keep doing them until you get good at it. Then you can slowly modify them again as you mature/change/whatever...

I don't, and never have (even as a student teacher!) worn make-up in school, not since I was a kid and a pupil with faaaaaar too much time on my hands at boarding school!! No-one ever commented, not wearing it never lost me a job, and it didn't lose me the respect of colleagues. But then I always knew who and what I was, what I was doing, and had the confidence to carry it off. I think it has a lot to do with your sense of self worth and your self image rather than the war paint as such.

The weight and the spots may have more to do with it than the lack of make-up, but again, I suspect your projection of yourself rather than how you look: if *you* see these as disadvantages, they will be. I didn't find my excess weight to be a problem in getting a job, but it might be if it affects your mobility and you get breathless stomping up stairs. Personally, even if hormonally induced, I wouldn't be slastering my face with make-up if the spots were on the rampage. I'd be avoiding it more than ever, and pestering the quack for a solution.

These are about the only times I bother with make-up these days - and I'm pushing 50! Clear skin and a good moisturiser are far better for you than an inch of slap! ;) Mind you, I have dark eyes, lashes and brows, and colour in my cheeks. If you are fair to mousey with lightly marked brows and not a lot of colour in you, you may find a little subtle help goes a long way.

Originally my knowledge and expertise came from experimentation at the age of 13-14... My mum was a lot of help, as she knew I had reactionary skin (flared up at the slightest provokation, in itchy blotches and lumps!), and she steered me clear of the cheap and nasty end of the market.

These days when I do access the war paint, I tend to use a light tinted moisturiser (I like the Nivea Visage ones), good quality eye make-up (Clinique, Dior, Guerlaine, and Lancome), and Maybeline or Miners mascara. For some reason all the 'really good' makes of make-up do really crap mascara!

Just buy a little, some good cleanser that suits your skin, and some decent brushes (make up artists use sable paint brushes, not 'make-up' brushes!) and have fun!

I was lucky. My folks were married over 50 years and dad treated mom like a queen. I was lucky to choose well in my husband although out of 5 girls only 2 of us did that. My mom never much wore anything but lipstick when I was a kid. Her only sister would not be seen without full make up on. Folks always guessed mom the younger even though she was 7 years older. She didn't lay out in the sun though.

I wear make up a lot less than I used to. Not for casual days around the house or grocery but I will for lunch or visiting and meetings and such. I feel more polished when I have make up on. I feel prettier. If you feel prettier you will look prettier imo. I didn't wear make up as a young teen but worked at a dept store as and older teen. The make up gals are really well trained. Meet them, talk to them, learn from them. In my early 20's several of us gals went to modeling school. I learned a lot about makeup, hair, how to walk in heels (most women have no clue) and all kinds of things you might not think about. It was fun. I am not now or never was a model but it is good to know this stuff and then use what you like. You should look good wearing make up not painted. Have fun with it though. Once you get it right you'll feel good and enjoy it. The hair thing is tough for me too. I am pretty clutzy and have thin, fine hair. Ask folks that have nice do's who does their hair. Go into a salon and look at their books. DOn't be afraid of the whole mess. HAve fun with it. You need to put a good attitude in your mind too. Taria

Tricia wrote:

I learned from my mother & friends mothers, my girlfriends, reading magazines and practicing to see what I like. I've changed my style over the years. But basically, I learned

- A little goes a long way

- You have to work with what you have.

- Make up is to enhance not to cover up.

You need four things for day: That's it: _eyeshadow_ in brown/tan/beige, (depending on how light or dark you are), ie neutral colors _eyeliner_ that is a little darker than your eyeshadow (pencil, dont' get the liquid stuff, that's advanced level!), _brow pencil or powder_ the color of your brow, _lipstick_ in a color that is the color of your lips but just a bit darker. Use a tiny bit and blend slightly with your fingers.

Get your eyebrows shaped professionally. It is worth the investment. You will be surprised how much better your eyes look!

Keep yourself neat and tidy.

Take care of your nails. They don't have to be long claws, just clean & tidy.

Stick with classics and neutral colors: dont' try to be trendy.

Buy the best you can afford in natural fabrics, in your correct size, get them altered if they don't fit properly. Then take care of them.

Invest in well made leather shoes, and take care of them (keep them clean & polished). Our feet are much more important than most people treat them.

Work with what you have: if you have straight hair work with that. If you have curly hair work with that. It is little use trying to fight it if you dont' have experience and an investment in lots of product. Keep your hair clean & tidy. Get a good hair cut and keep it healthy and tidy. Find a good product for flyaway or dry hair. (but a little goes a long way. Don't drown your hair in product)

That's it. All my wisdom I impart on you, my child, and you will look a million dollars! ;o)

"Tricia" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com:

Or if you have a BeautiControl consultant in your area, give her a call. They also help with wardrobe colors. Department store makeup counters can also help.

Julia > I learned it from a Mary Kay consultant. All of them are trained in showing

Tricia, I think you're getting lots of good input here, and I'm just going to add a little bit to that. I'm the type who doesn't feel dressed without makeup.

First, go to a *really* good makeup counter in a big store for a free make-up lesson. You may have to buy one or two little things (unless you're stronger than I am ), but it will be worth it. Those gals really know their stuff. I had a Mary Kay makeover once -- she'd had next to no training, and it showed. Once you see how the makeup is applied, you can decide whether to do it exactly the same way or to tone it down just a bit or to ramp it up a notch. Invest in some little makeup sponges; they're worth their weight in gold for blending, blending, blending so you don't get the "clown effect".

As for your hair, make an appointment with a hair stylist whose work you admire -- preferably one who has done hair similar to yours. Not everyone has easily-styled hair (I don't), and you need to learn how to work with the kind you have. Once you find a style you like and can maintain (and that your hair will condescend to work with), you can keep going to whatever hair stylist you've discovered does the best job for

*your* hair.

Good luck! As Polly says, first impressions are so very important. The lack of makeup doesn't mean you're not a good person, but you only get that one chance to make a good first impression. People can't help being swayed by appearances.

This is coming from a "girl" who doesn't often wear any kind of makeup:

I didn't learn (and my teenage years were no more screwed up than anyone elses - I just was not interested) to wear makeup or do my hair nicely.

These days, I tie my hair back for work (there are some great accessories, clips etc out there) and if I'm doing something special I might get my lashes dyed (I seem to remember that this is not an (legal) option in the US, but in Europe, it works fine) - that way there is no self-induced pressure to try to mix mascara with wearing glasses, I tried that enough to realise it doesn't work for me. Oh, and slap on some lipstick for special occassions.

Oh well. I do try to pay some attention to wearing clothes that suits me (when not on vacation at least!), but that is about it.

Other already gave some advice about how you could seek help in learning. I used to sometimes think about learning, but now it is _way_ down my list of what might make me feel even better about myself, so for me it is not going to happen anytime soon :-)

Hanne (normally) in London

Tricia wrote:

Well, I concur with some of the other suggestions. If you live in an area that has department stores, just make a phone call & ask if you can get a complimentary make up consultation with one of their consultants. Sometimes a particular make-up company will have a special, but most often, even if there isn't a special going on, one of the consultants will happily do it for you. And there shouldn't be any charge for it. They are hopeful that you'll spend some money, so it's in their best interests. Most of the make up consultants in department stores are employed by the manufacturer, not the department store. And don't feel you have to buy everything or anything from them. I always tell them I need to wear it for the rest of the day to see if my skin reacts to anything - which is true. If the new product "wears" well, then I go back & buy it. I don't wear a lot of make up - mostly the basics, unless I'm really dressing up. Every few years, if I feel my look is getting a little stale, I do go to get a make-over at the make-up counters in the store. It always gives me a little lift & makes me try new techniques or colors. Whatever you do, don't let them over do you - you won't feel natural. Years ago, I had a makeover & left the store & drove straight home to wash it all off. I looked like a stage actor!!

Regarding hair - not my strength either - but I try to stay with a fairly "simple" hairstyle, while still looking stylish. I've always threatened to move my current hairstylist into my house with me, so they can fix my hair in the morning. Do as others have suggested - if you see a hairstyle you like, ask someone where they get their hair done. Take into consideration if you have fine hair, curly hair, coarse hair, etc. because someone that has a different texture of hair from yours will end up with a different look than you. You can also "interview" potential hairstylists to see if you think you will work well together. See what they suggest & explain how it's a weak area for you, so it needs to be doable for YOU. Sometimes it takes a few visits for your hairstylist & you to get to a good spot.

I also recommend seeing a dermatologist if your skin is breaking out. Don't try to "fix" it yourself. You need to see a professional.

If you're worried about your weight - try to dress in a way that helps to camoflage the areas you're most concerned about. This is another area where a good sales person can help you. And remember - you can always return anything you buy that you have buyers remorse after you get home & try it on again. You can also return make-up - even to drug stores. (It looked different when I got it home - it made me break out - it creased in my eyelids, etc.)

Good luck - you sound like you need a lift & taking it one step at a time will really help you to feel better about your appearance. Keep us posted!

During my teen years I had other things on my mind, so I did not delve into makeup and fancy hairdos. Later I did so and after trying a number of things found that makeup did not work on me at all due to a skin condition. My extremely fine hair is impossible for even beauticians to handle, so I have a simple hair style. I do keep myself presentable in every other way and I think that lack of makeup and fancy hair styles have NOT stopped me from getting any jobs.

If you look at many women who accomplished much, you will often find that they have simple hair styles that require minimal care. They are busy with greater issues.

Bev in TX

Tricia wrote: ... portions snipped

Tricia: Interesting topic! I like how helpful and kind everyone has been with this. :)

As Polly said, first impressions are important. I see so many people with 'who cares' hair! If your pony tail is too fly-away, maybe you need a nice bob. That is generally a neat and professional look. Pony tails and head bands will not impress the interviewers. My hair is straight and not very heavy. It has nice sheen though. For me, the best look is either a bob or a very short cut, both low maintenance styles. This means my hair is neat, and shows the sheen to nice advantage. (AND, I save time for quilting!!)

For now, do not worry about the make up and cosmetics. You need to learn good SKIN CARE! The Mary Kay consultants do this quite well; experienced ones do it best, of course. Go on line and look for a "Director" who will have that experience. (I DID sell MK at one time, but NOT now, so NAYY, I just like the MK Skin Care.) Once you get a handle on Skin Care, you can look into a light foundation, a dash of lipstick soft blush, and some mascara. Go for a polished and natural look.

Garments affect your look, regardless of weight or body type. Get to know a sharp sales person in a store such as Dress Barn, Macy's, etc. NAYY! Find one who has build similar to you and who looks sharp. Ask her to help you put together one interview ensemble.

HTH. Be sure to take some Before and After photos. PAT

The first time I paid much attention to things like hair and makeup was after the birth of my younger daughter. Feeling fat, frumpy and long overdue for a change of hairstyle, I made an appt at a hair salon that I had never used before, sat in the chair, and said, "Make me beautiful." No kidding! That elicited a few laughs, but when they knew I was truly seeking some guidance, the stylist seemed to know exactly what to do. She consulted with a couple of the other stylists and we ended up getting rid about 8" of hair and giving me a short, layered style that not only took

*years* off the way I looked AND felt, but was so easy to look after with a new baby.

While I was there, I had eyebrows waxed for the first time, someone showed me how to apply natural-looking makeup, and I had a manicure -- something I'd never splurged on before. The total tally for the excursion was close to $100, but I walked out of there feeling like a million bucks. :-)

Nancy in NS

I agree with Polly. An employer is not going to hire someone who gives the appearance they don't care about the way they look. You can go to the cosmetic counter at any department store, and they will be happy to help you. They will show you how to apply the makeup. I use Clinique, and I get a free face makeup several times a year. Ask someone to give you the name of their hair stylist. Also, go to a gym, YWCA, or local recreation group and see if there are some exercise classes you can take. You can also change the way you eat. Cut your portions down, don't eat between meals. If you need a snack, eat a small apple or something like that. First impressions are everything. You have to give the impression that you care about your appearance.

Sherry Starr

Can't wear make-up, can't do 'beauty shops', and my hair is just as straight as it can be. Can 'do' short hair and when my hands can hold it up I will blow dry 'height' into it. Keeping this in mind I took a class on 'finding a new job at your age for both sexes. There were 5 guys and 3 gals.

The last day of class each of us had to write ONE sentence about everyone in the class. My 'comments' ran the gamut of: From the guys "I couldn't wait to "see" what you were going to wear> You have the 'nicest wardrobe' I have ever seen> Do you go to Denver to do your clothes shopping?"(lived on the Western Slope of CO at the time) .

Gals were mostly: You seem to be very artistic--- type of comments.

I made my clothes and they fit...didn't wear makeup and my hair was always clean and naturally 'shiny'.

In other words you never know what others 'see' when you walk into the room

I can't give other advice but hope this helps somewhat.

Good luck in your job hunt. Let us know what you find.

Butterfly (no, I was NOT allowed to wear makeup in HS so I learned in college)

Howdy!

[[[[[Tricia]]]]]

My mom thinks "make-up" is her lipstick and maybe a stroke of that turquoise eyeshadow that was so popular in the early 1970s. When she sees me w/ a blend of eyeshadow and/or a touch --just a touch-- of blusher on my face-- she calls me an ugly name. I got over that years ago; no need to carry her baggage w/ me, right? So I didn't grow up doing the girly-girly toilette routine, either. Lucky for me, long, straight, shiny hair was THE trend in my teens. However, in my mid-twenties it was way past time to ditch the ponytails and do something about my "complexion." Went to a local lady's wear shop, asked about "nice clothes", got fitted for the "correct support garments" , and then swallowed my embarrassment and said, "Any advice on make-up?" Since then I've worn an oil-free base foundation, light dusting of loose powder, and a bit of color on my eyes, and try to keep some lip color to stay on. The light layer of foundation and powder really helps keep the oil under control, cuts down on the zits, and makes me look like I at least tried to fit into the "normal" for grown-up American women.

Tricia, STOP getting your hair permed. Very few women look good w/ permed hair; so many just go w/ that crinkly look, not styling that perm, and that looks worse than flat, straight hair. A nice layered cut puts some bounce in your hair, and in your step: when you like your hair you feel better. Color it any way you please; changing hair color is easy, fun, and much healthier than those damned perms!

Got a shopping mall near you? The gals (mostly women) at the make-up counters enjoy giving lessons in how to best use their products, for YOUR skin, how to make you look good. One of my best friends works for Dior at a local Dillard's Dept. store. She's gorgeous at age 55, loves make-up (always has) and got the job when she got divorced 8 yrs. ago; she's quite a success. Part of her success in selling her products is that she knows How To: how to go w/ a light, day look, how to go w/ more color or deeper shades for glamour, how to play up eyes, make a fuller mouth, how to choose the right color of foundation. That's what the make-up sellers are trained to do. I've gone to her special make-up sales and had a complete "do" to increase her sales numbers, tho' I seldom buy anything. I'm just not spending that much money on make-up. Walgreens, CVS, grocery stores supply most of what I prefer, oil-free, light-weight, throw=out-the-leftovers make-up. Mary Kay: can't wear the stuff, myself; haven't agreed w/ the 3 salesladies at the "parties" I attended: I refuse to wear pink make-up. I attend these parties for good friends; "This is a party? You better have good refreshments!" My Avon lady keeps me supplied w/ good moisturizers and other products that keep my complexion clear(er). Go to an "Expert" and find the right products for yourself, then go to a shop that sells something similar for a more reasonable price that fits your budget. IF your complexion is driving you crazy, see your doctor. You can get a prescription that helps your skin from the inside out. My skin has been noticeably clearer since I gave up drinking soda pop in March.

You need to feel better about the way you look. This is a place to start. And to feel better about yourself: give up the old crap from the way you were raised. You don't live w/ those people any more; move on! Being overweight: my mom never passes up a chance to mention it. She's not, never has been; I take after my dad's side of the family, tall & "BIG", or short & round. No one force feeds me. I've proved to myself I can lose weight. Most people can. It's the obsessing about it that makes me sick. (Can't watch Oprah anymore, she's all about her body image! Get the fu## over it!) My tall, slender older brother said to me a few years ago, "Mom always makes smartass cracks about your weight; how can you stand it?" I said, "Dave, so I'm fat and she's a bitch. The thing is, I can lose weight." Being overweight shouldn't hold you back.

One of the oddest jobs I ever had was working at a "temp agency", interviewing prospective employees and sending them on job interviews.

**Meaning NO offense** : I learned that women here in/from Texas take more care for how they look in public, than do women "up north" like my hometown in n.Illinois. The hardest part of the job was getting the "transports" (women who moved to Texas from the central northern part of the U.S.) to "Fix yourself up!" before going on an interview. "Want a professional job? Look professional." If this is really what's bugging you, it's easy to "fix" right now.

To bring this On Topic (Quilting): I knew that my grands and great-grands, aunts and mothers, all quilted. But I didn't see them quilt. I saw my mom do embroidery, quilt top piecing, all kinds of handcrafts, but I didn't grow up w/ anyone showing me How To Quilt. I learned because I wanted to quilt. And now I'm pretty good at it. And I look presentable at the Big Functions we must attend in Dallas or Ft.Worth, and my husband's boss never hesitates to give me The Billionaire Kiss at the annual Christmas party. I must be doing something right w/ clothes and make-up. ;-D

Good luck, Sweetie!

Ragmop/Sandy--who still doesn't "get" that eyelash curling thing, but I no longer care...

On 8/28/06 10:12 AM, in article snipped-for-privacy@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com, "Tricia" wrote:

I'm curious as to _why_ you think the topic needs discussing _here_. :)

-Irene

-------------- You only live once, but if you do it right, once is enough.=20

--Mae West=20

--------------

Tricia-

The other replies here have many really good suggestions, so I won't duplicate those.

I work Saturdays at the front desk for a real estate office. The owner is a friend who has handled many real estate transactions for me over the past 18 years. She and I have discussed and agree- the most important duty is that I smile. A smile in my voice on the telephone and a smile to greet everyone who comes thru the door. Start with your smile and a well modulated voice and an open, pleasant, friendly, polite, calm attitude. Be sure your vocabulary includes many "good mornings", "pleases', and "thank yous" and make a big effort to use people's names- and try to remember their names. I use first names with people who seem open and friendly and Mr. or Mrs./Ms. with everyone else. If in doubt, err in the more formal address. Being prepared, dependable, clean, neat and appropriately dressed is very important- more so than make-up and a hairstyle.

Best of luck.

Leslie- with over thirty years experience working with the public and have been hired for every job I ever applied for- except one.....

PS: Do y> No offense to our male readers/quilters, but this topic is weighing on