Happy Channukah

That's true. In general usage - people use it to refer to food that is strictly forbidden. So there may be staples, or things like meat in the house that aren't "kosher" - which would have to do with the way the meat was butchered, and some other details (cleaning, salting - no blood to be left). But, you wouldn't really refer to that as treif. Treif would be things like pork, shellfish.

This is very true. More people that I know don't keep kosher - in the true sense - but also don't eat treif - so in essence follow the basic essence of the dietary laws without the separate kitchen, nothing touching full details.

There are those that belief the history of the laws had to do with health - as in shellfish, pork in biblical times were so frequently not safe (well, even into modern times). And milk/dairy with cooked things could have led to curdling. OTOH, my pretty strictly kosher, orthodox friend said that the not mixing dairy with meat has to do with the biblical phrase of not eating the calve cooked with the mothers milk (not the exact quote).

Personally - I tend to go through phases about pork, etc. During holiday seasons there is definitely no treif in the house, but I may relent sometime and agree to bacon. Generally not - but I don't keep kosher. Just the treif thing - and I definitely do not do meat with dairy. Our friends kids had to learn that if I was over for dinner - no milk on the table with the meat meals (don't worry - the kids get plenty of milk, and these are people who sing blessings before all the meals, do a full shabbot service, etc - so it wasn't a big hardship). But, I do on occasion have things which will have pork or shellfish (minimal amounts) int them. Go figure. DH has learned to live 99% of the time without pork stuff in the house

Yup - thanks, Lucille.

An organinc flow , could be the wrong color , some tear any thuing that isn`t what it should be. mirjam

Ellice,

Ah, c'mon, you mean I can't eat porkloin, wrapped in bacon, and then deep-fried for a "traditional Channukah" meal? Day-um, I was so looking forward to it! ROFL

Caryn

In the more heavily populated bits of Scotland one of the delicacies in the local fish & chip shops is a deep-fried Mars bar; the die-hard fish & chip shops still use lard instead of new-fangled vegetable oil. Mars Bar may be known in the USA under a different name such as Snickers Almond Bar or Milky Way. (Why DO they keep changing these old, established names?)

Don't forget the cheese sauce!

Paula (raised in the "Borscht Belt")

Caryn wrote:

"HeyPaula" ,in rec.crafts.textiles.needleworkwrote: and entertained us with

Just love Borscht but have never made it. I am told it is not complicated to make and should give it a try, it's not something that turns up on menus here.

All this discussion of Chanukah meals is making me remember what was way back when, and not what is now. When I was a kid, and everyone knows that was in the dark ages, Chanukah was a little holiday that was mostly a little celebration that included the kids.

For me, there was no big formal Chanukah meal. We went to my grandmother's house and as usual she fed us something for dinner, generally a dairy meal, and whatever it was it always included potato pancakes, aka latkes. The reason for the dairy meal was we liked our latkes with sour cream and that meant no meat of any kind.

She would put a clean something, generally a clean dish towel, over her head, say the appropriate prayer in Hebrew and light the candles.

After that, we played a game with the dreidl, a little toy like a top, the prize being some nuts which were still in the shells and maybe if times were very good a piece of chocolate. I was the only kid at that time so I was given an orange, a few pennies and if it was available a pomegranate that I was forbidden to eat in her house because it would make such a mess.

That's all there was. I guess now it's become a whole big deal, but it wasn't that way then; at least in my family that was true.

Lucille

"Lucille" ,in rec.crafts.textiles.needleworkwrote: and entertained us with

That too is the same with Christmas. At my grandmothers during the war years, a tree was dug out from the veggie garden, same one every year planted in a pot so the size did not get out of hand, put in the bay window of the drawing room and decorated very simply.

On Christmas Eve we put a stocking on the bed post and received a few presents, all of which were really little things. Maybe a pack of cards, a new rubber ball, a new ruler with pictures on it for school. Those are some examples I remember.

Then when adults (who seemed to take forever) finally woke up we would all have breakfast. Any who were not staying in the house would arrive around noon and then, only then, one was allowed in the drawing room and magically presents had appeared under the tree. Father Christmas would be heard coming in the front door and he would sit in the big chair and hand out the presents. We would open them all and while diverted, he would disappear and one of the uncles or male friends would arrive late lol There were not many toys available through the war and I received things like books, the Christmas Annuals once so popular in the UK, every once in awhile someone received a bike, usually the eldest cousin, those below that might get a hand me down bike.

Then it was time to eat the Christmas meal - usually a couple of chickens if we were lucky but everyone sat down at once, everyone wore paper hats and it was a great meal.

I remember those Christmasses very fondly and wonder why anyone allowed merchants to corrupt it all. Most of the fun was the games we played, charades, Monopoly, Totopoly etc and the fact that the adults were so very nice to us on Christmas Day lol It was the one night children were allowed to stay up as opposed to being in their beds by

Simple pleasures and it's a great pity that it is not like that today. I don't really like Christmas much anymore, except when we all sit down to eat here Christmas Day - even then I feel sort of guilty about the quantity of food but make sure I have done all I can to make Xmas a bit easier for others. I used to keep quiet about it, but nowadays thankfully, many people have the same sentiments.

It seems that we probably have similar feelings about being what my DM would call "gracious hosts" - you just want to make your guests comfortable.

Ellice

Troublemaker. It just would be tradtional for something else - the all porkfestival of cholesterol ...... But, I'll tell DH to come to your place for such fun - he'd be up for it.

Ellice

PS - want to come to the game on the 22nd????? It's the Devils.

Mars bars are still Mars Bars. The chocolate in the US is a little different than in the UK - but essentially it's the same thing.

My not so amicable ex-DH was one of those that insisted on lard for about everything. I had not idea - but his mom - who was a terrible cook except for tamales - thought that was the way to go. So, one day I'm making pastry dough, and he's assured me that there is shortening in the house (pre-the stupid wedding) and he says he'll get it started - cuts in the shortening . I don't really pay attention - then I finish doing the dough, roll it out - and wonder why the pie tastes like bacon...

ellice

Personally - I use the jarred stuff, then fix it up with whipping in sourcream, sliced cucumbers, and served chilled - but with steaming hot boiled potatoes to plop in there. It's not that difficult to make from scratch - but depends on how you feel about getting beet stains on things - it can be messy. For my taste - some of the good jarred stuff is almost as good as homemade - and much simpler.

ellice

Even in the not quite so dark ages it wasn't a huge deal. We'd get some little trinket type gifts most of the nights, and something more major 1 night. But we did have dinner with the grandparents at least one night - for latkes. And we always lit candles and said prayers - each night.

We just did the one night for sure with grandparents - and then maybe a night with the family friends - not a big deal - more fun for a get together.

We played dreidl - sang a couple of songs, and that was it.

I think that as Christmas has become more and more the big commercial extravaganza, many families I know have made a bit more of Chanukah. I think not so much to blow the holiday out of proportion - but it's a nice remembrance, and doing more of the gift exchange perhaps keeps the children from so much of the Christmas commercial aspect envy. I never felt that I wanted a Christmas tree - but I do know people that do it just because they like how it looks. But, most people I know still don't have Chanukah as the big event that my gentile friends have for Christmas. Even when we meet with our friends, and all the godchildren - honestly - it's lovely - we all sing the blessings, light the menorahs (everyone in the family has their own at our best friends) and then there is some gift exchange - and it could really be trinkets - or something nice. One year - my old officemate gave his wife a mechanical pencil - I couldn't stop laughing - as it wasn't even a really nice pencil..... Last night - he's out of town - so the kids had been entrusted with the gift to mom - and we had dad on speakerphone while we sang the blessings, etc. Anyhow - 20 yr old godson then hands mom a package which is a rolled up grocery plastic bag with something in it - and says on the phone - "since the gift is from you, dad - we wrapped it the way you would" - we all got a good chuckle.

Well, that's my take from the not quite as dark ages - maybe just the middle ages.

ellice

Nah, when you use good lard, it does NOT taste like bacon!!! It makes many good things, and it is a change that the dietary gurus have banned it!!! With Jim on his almost-no-carb diet, I could probably use it. We do use real butter, real cheese, real mayo etc........and ALL his blood chemistries have rverted to normal!!

Gill

Trust me the Snickers Almond is not a Mars Bar - that disheartens me to no end. A Mars Bar was a treat, not ho hum experience

Cheryl

Go for it Gill. I could weep for all the elegant, delightful gentlemen I knew over the last 20 years, all of whom were condemned to eat margarine by the doctors who threatened them with all sorts of bad results if they ate butter. Now they are told 'No, no! No trans fats. naughty!"

p.s. we never stopped eating best butter. In my house, margarine was cooking fat. However, I have discovered that to find lard these days, it is necessary to go into the "ethnic" areas. Good luck.

Olwyn Mary in New Orleans.

Yes Eliice !!! Thank you for understanding . mirjam

I'll ask Dude! I can always cheer AGAINST the Devils! LOL

BTW, I decided to skip that deep-fried pork and go with turkey for Xmas dinner.

Caryn

Gill Murray ,in rec.crafts.textiles.needleworkwrote: and entertained us with

I have not found a sub for lard when making pastry and since I do not eat it that often, what the heck. It should have zero flavour if it is good lard.