I Voted

Sheena,

I think much of the lack of general education in the USA, is because here education is very focused on a series of small single goals.

I remember when I went to school in UK, and even in the 70s when my daughter and son went to school in Scotland, one had a very broad knowledge of a subject. For example, one learned geometry usually from age 12 to 16; the same with history, trench, Literature,geography etc. At age 12, in 1974, Marcella started Latin, Algebra etc. These may be a half-hour lesson a week, but the knowledge is never forgotten in those fertile young brains!

We had a very broad knowledge of many things, and that was more than adequate to jump into a working world at age 16., School leaving age.

Here in the US, I can only write from my experiences through the kids, they do not have the slow and gradual learning experience we had. The kids are exposed to a semester of a selection of the subjects , but this does not build a deep knowledge of subjects. To learn Western Civilization in 6 months is rubbish.

It is probably a combination of two things! We are older, pre-electronic age and really had the basics drummed into us. Secondly, my belief is that the educators in the US relate to what was the educational system in their youth......and that wasn't all that great either.

What scares me is that there are some school districts who plan to use computers only, no pencil or paper. While on that subject, I see so few people over here, where I have spent 45 years of my life, able to hold a pencil correctly, i.e makes it better to be able to read the writing, etc.

Well, I truly hope I haven't opened a can of worms. However, as in all arguments and discussions, there is more than one side, and none are perfect.

Sheena and I are older, and were educated in UK. many of you are younger, and your kids were educated differently. There is good and bad in everything!!

Gillian, trying to be honest, but not flaming anybody or their way of life!

Gill Murray ,in rec.crafts.textiles.needleworkwrote: and entertained us with

Well even though I love my computer, I do not think that is a great idea. It's fine for extras in High School and even more so at university, but school, nope.

You know I went back to visit my school this past trip for a reunion. We were able to stroll round the dormitories, talk to the girls currently there and some of the mistresses. One said to me, "I do the rounds at 10pm with my basket and all cell ' phones have to be turned over" - I looked suitably surprised never having even considered they might be allowed them then she said "Of course I know most of them have two cell 'phones anyway" lol

Some things don't change though, great stress on education and learning. Music, they still have people in for recitals and to give speeches on all sorts of subjects. Lots of sports and gym. The dormitories are regarded as their own space and that sure shows, mess everywhere. I couldn't help but think it must be torture for a neat person to live with that, at least in my day we all had to keep it neat, hospital corners and barracks neat lol

It should be great, nearly thirty thousand quid per year now, just for the tuition. Boarding, uniform, extra curricular all added on to that!

Maybe it has something to do with our age. I went to school in Brooklyn, NY and had a far superior education to that given now. I had no Latin, but I did have Spanish and a very small smattering of French and we were required to learn Math, English and History in every grade, starting from 1st and going through high school. And the Regents tests we were given were damned hard. We generally had a week or two of preparation, not most of the term like it is now in Florida for the FCats. We were also given number grades, not pass or fail the way they do now.

Probably my excellent education may have been because it was the New York City School System which was better (I suppose because of sheer size of student body) than lots of smaller towns in the United States, and I can say for sure there weren't very many illiterate high school graduates, or cashiers who can't figure out how much change to give you if the computer is down. I have a lot of teacher friends, mostly my age, and they seem to think that a lot of the problems came with the parents who think they know what's good for the kids and to hell with the teachers. They seem to be so busy chauffeuring their kids to their various after school activities that they actually complain about homework. I can just picture my mother's face if I said it was too much. She would have given me "the look" and said get to it.

Things have changed for sure, and I don't think it's necessarily for the better. The new high school here uses only computers. When I asked my friends 14 year old grandson what he would do if his computer crashed he turned green. I was appalled because he said, I think I would like to go into engineering so I must learn the computer. When I said, don't they teach you how to do anything on paper, he looked at me like I was an alien being. How could I do that advanced math without the computer. I told him to go get a slide rule and see how it's done. After I had to explain what a slide rule was, he got mad as hell at me. But I know, he's typical of the kids in high school today and I find that sad.

I know that in my time, when we got out of high school we knew what many of the kids never learn now, or have to pick up when they go to college. I actually could pick out Africa on a map and I doubt that's true of most of today's kids.

It's got to be an age thing because I really think my education, way back in the dark ages, was so much better than what I see now.

I'm sure the youngsters here are going to disagree, but that's okay. Us oldsters know better!!! lol

Yes, the Regents were tough, and probably gave us New Yorkers a better education than states without "exit exams", but our European History class nonetheless stopped just after the Renaissance. I had to ask my grandparents (who were educated there) when and how Germany went from a bunch of duchies to a unified Germany, because we didn't cover that era. I think the Russian Revolution was mentioned in passing.

IIRC, we knew Elizabeth was Queen of England because we saw her on TV, and not because we were ever taught that in school. Most of what we knew about Germany in the 20th Century was from our German textbooks, not our history books.

"World History" was really the ancient Romans and Egyptians. I don't recall it including much about China other than a nod to its existence.

While our education in the 60s/70s was definitely better than what they're giving now, my parents in the 30s/40s got a much better education than we did. When we went to Boston on vacation, Mom started reciting from memory and I looked blank. Not only did we not have to memorize The Midnight Ride of Paul Revere, we hadn't even *read* it. They were too busy giving us "meaningful" modern crap with psychobabble and satire and utter garbage that made some of us wonder what the authors were smoking to write this plotless, pointless, incomprehensible drivel. (And I'm not talking Kerouac or Ginsburg, but authors I'd never heard of and can't even remember. Maybe they were sleeping with the textbook editors, because I sure can't think of any other reason their schlock should have gotten in there.)

============================================================================ Karen, we only got our TV very shortly before she was crowned Queen in

1952. I don't recall the exact date, but I know it wasn't much before that. We had to rely on old fashioned methods of learning like radio, newspapers and books. How ever did we learn, no TV, no calculators, we didn't even have school buses and we carried our books in our own little arms. I doubt anyone gave a second thought to the fact that I was always a short, skinny kid who was dragging around heavy text books. Had I complained my sarcastic mother would probably have said something like, what do you think I did when I was in school (also in Brooklyn.) Take a Taxi ??? How ever did we survive? I suspect that it's just too easy to get information today so you don't have to remember anythng. I've heard the kids say we can just look it up. =================================================================================

============================================================== I hate to admit it, but my education was in the 40s/50s and was still good. And during the war years because of the shortage of teachers and no money for new buildings, we sometimes shared a desk. My husband always resented that his last name started with a Z because they would seat us in alphabetical order and that meant he rarely got a seat at all and was stuck sitting on a tall chair and using the window sill for a desk, or someone rigged something up in a corner at the back of the room. We were classes of

40 to 50. Now one teacher can't handle 23 kids without a teacher's aide, or lacking the money for that, a volunteer parent. =================================================================================

When we went to Boston on vacation, Mom started

============================================================================ I vaguely remember it and probably could get a big chunk back in my memory if I tried real hard. It started something like" "Listen my children and you shall hear of the midnight ride of Paul Revere." And then there was the famous line that said: "One if by land and two if by sea and I on the opposite shore will be." Now I'm going to have to look it up and see how much I remember. ==================================================================================

========================================================================================= I'm so sorry to have to agree with you. And it's definitely worse here. We have by far the worst school system I've ever seen in Port St Lucie. A friend of mine still teaches in the high school at 75 because they simply can't get qualified teachers who are willing to teach there. Because she's experienced, and comes from a very good school district in Suffolk County, they gave her a remedial reading type class, made up of really rotten students both academically and socially. This old lady, who was being treated for Lymphoma this year and is grossly overweight, manages to handle the kids and even gets some of them to learn a little. Younger teachers can't or maybe they simply won't try. She wanted to quit this year but they begged her to stay. Of course I blame a lot of the terrible school system in most of Florida on the FCats that our present Governor Jeb Bush (ick, ack, pooie) thinks are wonderful. And Charlie Criss, the next Republican Governor has been his right hand man for year (double ick ack pooie.) It's just wonderful how they spend most of the term teaching the kids to take a test. Who cares of they know nothing else.

It's late and on that unhappy note, I'm going to bed

Good night,

Lucille.

So I've heard from a friend who substitute taught in Florida for years.

One thing that really surprised me, the study guide for the 11th grade English Regents listed ~1000 pieces of great literature that potentially might be on the test, each with a 3-4 paragraph summary. One of the other kids in the class whined that we hadn't read these books/short stories that we were being tested on and this was unfair, and specifically that Karen had an unfair advantage because Karen always had her nose in a book.

My assignment that night was to go home and figure out just exactly how unfair an advantage I had. I came back with the information that even I was familiar with only about 10% of these (that I could recall having read), and some of those I'd read in German or French class, and some (like Dickens Christmas Carol) I was giving myself credit for knowing the plot because I'd seen the movie, not read the book.

But instead of giving us textbooks that contained the literature that was going to be on the Regents, they gave us textbooks that contained almost none of what we were going to be tested on. It was very much a matter of who could memorize those 1000 synopses, and hoping that the question on the test related to the blurb in the book.

I immediately handed off my study guide to younger friends with instructions to use that list for their summer reading, because they were only going to read a couple of that 1000 pieces in their classes.

"Lucille" ,in rec.crafts.textiles.needleworkwrote: and entertained us with

There's a clue there - I learnt Paul Revere too, and Flanders Field among many. In fact we were made to commit quite a bit to memory, it became quite easy to do. It was the favoured punishment for those who would not behave, I can still quote long passages from the Bible. It was NT for a small infraction and OT for larger ones, and if the crime was (in their opinion) heinous, well then they would give you OT 'begats' and you better get them right or another chunk would be administered. Beyond that, a caning, which I much preferred. Hurt but over and done with.

When I was about 30 I had to retake my Divers Certificate for a Canadian qualification and although I was proficient I can't say I really knew the theories behind Boyle etc. In the end, bring out the memory, even then it was a snip to just learn them word for word. When they asked the question in the exam, I just ran them through my memory and picked out the answer.

(Now to today ... yes, it is Sunday, private joke with Lucille. RDH)

How about these questions taken from a certification examination for prospective teachers, prepared by the Examiners of Teachers for the Public Schools in Zanesville, Ohio, in the late 1870s: (You can read the whole thing at the foot of webpage )

English Grammar

Give a brief example of a compound and a complex sentence. Give the rule for the use of the subjunctive mood.

Define and give the etymology of verb, prounoun, conjunction and adverb. Give example of a defective, an auxillary, an impersonal and a redudant verb. How many kinds of prounous are there? Give examples of each.

Arithmetic (Put all your work on the paper and make it explain itself)

Define integer, fraction, interest, discount, power, and root.

Multiply 7/8 by .000018 and divide the product by 27 millionths.

Geography

What is meant by the equinoxes?

Locate the Crimea, Bombay, Bay of Fundy, and the Capital of Mississippi.

Into what three functions is the government of the United States divided? -- define each function.

You know it doesn't take too much to confuse me, so I'm glad you straightened that out for me. But as my friend always says: "When you're retired, every day is Sunday."

" snipped-for-privacy@aol.com" ,in rec.crafts.textiles.needleworkwrote: and entertained us with

Your problems, in comparison to those which Lucille has endured are a nothing. She does not need to 'make herself look good' - walk a mile in her shoes.

I know the feeling, and we all know I'm a sporadic stitcher at best, anyway! I've spent quite a bit on stashing lately (being two hours from Picture This Plus is not always a good thing!) but now that I'm working full time, I'm not even reading as much... started SK's "Lisey's Story" a week ago and still haven't finished it, and that's just unheard of for me! As for stitching.. well... I'm still fighting trying to see things. I keep spending money on shoes, trying to find something that will help my back AND feet hurt less by the end of the shift. I keep thinking every week that with "this paycheck" I'll be able to get new glasses and see if that helps me any. But shoes keep distracting me... just like a kid, so easily distracted.. LOL Tegan

I'm coming late to the party, but I'll add my two cents anyway. I don't think anyone is suggesting there's not a good reason to be hooked up and accessible 24/7. Just that it's sometimes very annoying when taken to extremes. Where I work, a truck stop, we'll have people walk in talking, wander the store talking, and even keep right on talking as you ring up their purchases. I've had them tell me "wait just a second" to tell them the total of their purchase, just so they could finish whatever conversation they are having. Isn't this rude? Or they don't even acknowledge that I've spoken, just dig in their purse or wallet, continue talking, hand me money, take their change and never even offer a glance at the person (me) they've just dealt with.

Or, sitting at the restuarant next door, as a customer, any number of times I've heard whatever ringtone the phone may have (I won't complain about those, since I've some obnoxious ones myself) but they answer, and while you may be six tables away, they talk loud enough that you can hear every word they say. Is this really necessary?

Yes, I've seen the local volunteer firefighters answer their phones and jump and run, so I know there's a valid reason for them carrying their phones 24/7, and I'm glad they are so easily accessible, but not everyone is in the life saving business, so do they really need to be hooked up all the time? I confess, with my Mother's health being shaky, I carry mine on and with me all the time, but if it rings when I'm in a position I deem impolite to respond, I glance at the call screen, then silence the ringer. If it's Mom, I'm answering, but otherwise, I'll call back when I reach a spot where I feel its polite to do so.

I'll admit, if I think about it, I much prefer the idea of truck drivers being hooked up with bluetooth rather than having to take one hand off the wheel to steer those behemoths. So even though I find them rude and annoying in the shop, I'm glad they have them when they are out on the road.

It's not those that need the phones that bother us so much, Sheena, it's those that abuse the privilege of having them that makes us all nuts. Rescuse workers, ambulance drivers, cops, etc., don't bother me at all. It's the rest of the population that makes them so annoying. Tegan

Reminds me of a remark made by Billy Connelly (Scottish comedian). If you are upset with someone then walk a mile in their shoes. Then it does not matter whether or not you are upset because the person is a mile away _and_ you've got their shoes...

Amen.

And the one that causes me problems is the people who think that I own a cell phone for THEIR convenience and should drop everything to answer it no matter where I am or what I'm doing.

I have one friend who will never have my cell number because of what she does with my home phone. I'll go in to take a bath, and she'll dial every 20 seconds until she finally realizes that maybe I'm not home. If she had my cell number, she'd switch to dialing that every 20 seconds until I get out of the bath to answer it.

All my problems last year were caused by someone who never stopped to think that when I go to the doctor, I'm required to turn the ringer off, so there was a perfectly good reason not to answer, which had nothing to do with her hysterical imaginings that if I wasn't answering, I must be dying.

" snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com" ,in rec.crafts.textiles.needleworkwrote: and entertained us with

I agree with you but I also disliked seeing no mention of anyone having a genuine use for the devices, seeing that I have two 'hooked' up myself.

We have not reached the pitch that you mention and I do feel if it started here, I would render a protest ! Though I admit, in your position you are stuck with having to put up with it. It is extremely rude to treat people serving you like that !

And I should take the advice of the likes of you?

A person who doesn't have the guts to allow her constant spew of venom to archive so that your history is out in the open? Pul-eeez!

Caryn

Oh come on. I'm the one who started complaining about crackberry users who annoy me. My OP on the subject was posted on Nov 9th at 8:53 a.m. EST. You replied at 10:15 a.m. I replied to your reply at 4:37 p.m. EST with the following:

"I am not rushing to judgement on this issue. I agree that sometimes it's important to be in touch. I understand their importance while working. What I am pissed off about is the social abuse of these devices. I don't need to listen to other peoples' conversations in public. Nor do I need to feel less important than their little machines while at a social function. If someone whipped out a book and started reading in the middle of a party, people would consider them ill-mannered and boorish. But pull out a crackberry and start tapping in the middle of a conversation and that's acceptable? I don't think so. "

Do you not see the words that I agree that sometimes it's important to be touch. I certainly was not complaining about people with a legitimate need to be connected 24/7. I was complaining about people who think they are so important that they need to be connected, but who are not that important in actuality.

D> I agree with you but I also disliked seeing no mention of anyone

I started Lisey's Story last week, too. But I'm trying to read it slowly to prolong the pleasure. Not easy when I keep waking up at 3:00 a.m. and reading for an hour...My DD frequently uses the word Boo'ya and now I need to go ask her where she got it from.

D>

It's not to prolong the pleasure so much as quite a bit of it hits closer to home than I want to admit. And yeah, while I've only gotten so far, I'd be darned curious about where DD got Boo'ya from too! Tegan