OT: Musings on the London bombings.

Fertilizer makes more than enough of a bomb. It toppled the Federal building in Oklahoma City. You can buy fertilizer anywhere - and I imagine, in rural Canada, it would be quite easy to obtain large quantities over the coarse of a year or two or three.

Remember, these guys have tons of patience.

I don't imagine it would be difficult to smuggle in vials of anthrax or other toxin.

Dianne

Oh JIM ! I never thought i would say this, but you are so Naive!! If your asuumption was right , than how do you explain , the explosives in London and Spain . I am not going to give anybody ideas but explosives are available to anyone who really wants them, The Idea of security forces and every Normal living person, is on prevention, from stage 1 --- and on, Here i will advice you to take the example of Drug dealers ,,,, No one can really stop it , but we can push sticks in the wheels all along the Way it rides,,,, and prevent as much as we can !

I see you are set in your mind, Supportive communities are a Help , but not a must to whomever wants to harm ,,,,,the sadest thing about Terrorists is their `creativity` in finding ways to harm. The 9/11 is a an example that shows you , that supportive communities wre not a must, but listening and reading waht the terrorists say and write is a must. The CNN Documentary i saw Saturday night , suggested that eventually all western countries will have to upgrade their security watching . Check bags in Train stations, bus stations and entrances of malls, etc..

I assure you that YOU have no idea if such an infrastructure doesn`t already exist in Canada.

if your imagination is not developed enough , there are loads of films that might give you an idea , For those Determined to harm there is no limit in their inventiveness.... > It would be *extremely* difficult for

I hope for you that your wish will come true ,,,,, but i have my doubts ,,,, Alas, `Dark forces` will always find their way.

I see Dianne that you are well informed , and not as naive as Jim ,,, mirjam

I really find this remark quite insulting to my intelligence. Here I am living in Canada, fully aware of the laws we have in place, the restrictions imposed by all levels of government, and I am called "naive". It is true that some criminals in Canada can obtain illegal materials, but criminals and terrorists dont mix in Canada. The USA is awash with guns of all types, from assault rifles down; you cannot easily obtain a hand gun in Canada. Even the purchase of ammonium nitrate is controlled. As to high explosives, firms which use them legitimately control them to the nth degree. Any missing explosives are immediately reported to law enforcement agencies, and they simply cannot afford not to follow the letter of the law or they would be out of business. Without an infrastructure haboring terrorists, it would be very difficult indeed for any terrorist to launch the sort of attack which occurred in London or Madrid. These attacks take months and years to plan, assemble the necessary materials etc. etc. Without a safe place to hide, terrorists would be unable to do this sort of thing in Canada. Hence my plea for Muslims in Canada to cooperate with our law enforcement agencies to ensure this sort of infrastructure *never* exists.

-- Jim Cripwell. From Canada. Land of the Key Bird. This creature of doom flies over the frozen tundra in winter, shrieking its dreaded call; "Key, Key, Key, Key rist but it's cold!!"

Getting illegal things from the USA into Canada is exceedingly difficult. The USA is awash in every conceivable type of firearm; you have the 2nd amendment to your constitution. Even before Marc Lepine we had very severe restrictions on all types of firearms. I defy anyone to show that it is easy to transfer guns, which are legal in to the USA, into Canada, where they are illegal. Bombs may be easy to make, but getting the sort of high explosive that was used in London is difficult. You need materials which are light enough to carry, safe enough to handle, but deadly enough to cause a lot of damage. Such materials are not home made. You think these things would be easy to get into Canada without our law enforcement agencies being aware of what is happening. I wont say it is impossible, but it certainly would not be easy.

-- Jim Cripwell. From Canada. Land of the Key Bird. This creature of doom flies over the frozen tundra in winter, shrieking its dreaded call; "Key, Key, Key, Key rist but it's cold!!"

But Jim, where there`s a will there`s ALWAYS a way! How else would drugs be smuggled into the country? Where you can smuggle drugs, you can smuggle explosives, even if only in minute quantities at a time. Afraid that Mirjam`s perfectly correct in her appraisal.

Pat P

Good Heavens - here am I, agreeing with Mirjam again. There will ALWAYS be ways found to provide the means for terrorism, and any schoolboy can make quite an effective bomb with fertiliser! I recall visiting friends with my mother (during the war) and the son of the house, who can`t have been more than ten at the time, made one hell of a blast by mixing fertiliser and another ingredient. Scared the whole row of houses to death.

He and I just hid behind the garden wall while it went off. When I think back, my blood runs cold at what MIGHT have happened.

Sleepers can appear as likeable, law abiding citizens for years, if necessary. Think of the Russian spies etc. - they just keep a low profile and don`t draw attention to themselves by breaking laws etc.

Think about it, Jim - the spies/traitors didn`t walk around wearing fur hats!!!

Pat P

JIM I apologise , it was not meant as an insult ,,,, it was meant as note to say , that amybe you were lucky and had a sheltered enough life. To believe that law enforcement forces can solve everything , regarding terror, by enforcing laws and rules ,,,, Terror is about chaos, about Using the loop holes , the open windows , and Spit the law in the face ,,, Terror is about catching the government putting money and energy into certain projects , or measures , and than just do something to make all those measures ridiculous. And Mind you , i Am all FOR rules , regulations and mreasures , to build the preventative networks against terror [ in any form]. But i am not naive enough to think this will be enough. Or to be able to rely Only on laws and regulations. Thus Really Really Excuse me! it was not meant to offense you , maybe it was a way wonderement that you can still believe and trust all those things you mentioned. Lucky you that you lack the experience we have.

You see this is the kind of remark i find ,,,,,ok i can`t say Naive ,,, so i will call it a beautiful wishful hope!!!!

I believe you that all this wonderful measures are taken and enforced in Canada !!! I still insist , that anybody who realy is interested in ding harm , will find the way to do so.

Well Jim i wish for you and anybody else , that your above wishful hope will indeed become the reality, and that Bad things Never will get to your shores . mirjam

Thank you Pat ! I had quite a giggle at you suggestion that spies didn`t go around wearing Fur hats !!!! mirjam

I dont remember if your son is still in Canada, but if he is, I suggest you ask his opinion as to whether Mirjam or I am more likely to be correct. We are not talking spies/traitors, we are talking terrorists. Terrorists only succeed if they carry out acts of terror. I know it is impossible for Canada to be always completely free of terrorists, but the chances that such people can launch an attack in Canada at the moment are very low, IMHO, and will remain low as long as they have no place to hide.

-- Jim Cripwell. From Canada. Land of the Key Bird. This creature of doom flies over the frozen tundra in winter, shrieking its dreaded call; "Key, Key, Key, Key rist but it's cold!!"

You are right, but there has to be a "will". For drug smuggling there is the profit motive. First you need to get into Canada people who have the will to commit acts of terror; there is no sign of this. And as I have remarked so often, terrorists trying to operate in Canada *without* some group of Canadians to hide them, are most unlikely to succeed.

-- Jim Cripwell. From Canada. Land of the Key Bird. This creature of doom flies over the frozen tundra in winter, shrieking its dreaded call; "Key, Key, Key, Key rist but it's cold!!"

Illegal arms sales have thrived for years because of the profit motive. I'm quite sure the same would apply to explosives, not to mention biologicals. Add to that mix those who are disaffected with the western way of living. I'm quite certain that many "difficult" objectives can be achieved by focusing on those kinds of people.

Might I remind you that we have a huge border with the US, and it's not possible to police all of it, all the time. And that's just the land. We also have coastline with tons of container traffic coming from all over the place. If people can smuggle drugs, they can smuggle other stuff too.

Until you have "Thought Police" you've no way of knowing what any single person is willing to do, or why. You seem to have the idea that all would-be terrorists carry a sign declaring their affiliation. As we have found out, they are chameleons, blending in very well in society. I suspect they are organised along "traditional" lines - small, even tiny, cells, functioning on a "need to know" basis. And I suspect that perhaps even their close friends and families may not know their affiliations.

Well, I hope you are right, but I have a sad feeling you are wrong............

emerald

Jim asks, "If two terrorists came into Canada, where would they get any explosives from?"

I cannot go into details ( "if I told you, I'd have to ....") but trust me on this, I know from whence I speak.

The Customs and Immigration officials on both sides of the Canada/US border are diligent, dedicated, and extremely efficient. Remember, though, that it was a US Customs officer in Bellingham, Washington who disrupted the Millenium plot to bomb LAX...by intercepting a vehicle coming into the US _from_ Canada that was loaded with explosives. Now, where did those explosives come from?

The US/Canadian border is what? 6000 km long? While much of it is rugged, barely penetrable wilderness, there are also hundreds of small roads that are not guarded. Heck, there are towns and even houses that straddle the border. People and goods have freely gone back and forth for at least four centuries. Indeed, on both sides we take pride in having the longest unguarded border in the world.

We are each others' largest trading partner. Thousands of trucks, airplanes and ships transit daily. The amount of merchandise and goods are staggering. Board feet of timber measure in the millions. The auto industry is essentially bi-national. The Great Lakes are shared inland seas. In a macro sense, the US and Canada share one economy. So why do you think that a couple of people couldn't figure out how to get themselves and the ingredients of mass destruction across the line in either direction?

Yes, Canada _does_ have stringent regulations about firearms (Bless you!)...but hunters can and do get permits for them all the time. So even that firewall is not quite as rigid as you might first suppose.

So, I guess I'm saying, that despite the best efforts of lots of good people, the threat of terrorism is just as real where you are as where I am. You can't wrap yourselves in a bubble any more than we can without severely restricting trade and travel. We could _almost_ guarantee security if we slapped on stringent restrictions, but it would be at a dreadful cost in both dollars and liberty.

In the meantime, we all just do the best we can.

Lynda

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Sometimes I think war is God's way of teaching us geography." ..................Paul Rodriguez..................................... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

LOL! Maybe Jim thinks they had the hammer and sickle tattooed on their foreheads!

Pat P

Looks like we`re getting somewhere - see

But you have a Muslim population, surely, who are "Canadian" even by birth. It`s not the nationality that`s the problem so much as the religion! Same applies here! It`s even more likely for them to be disaffected if they are criminals or unemployed, or have some other axe to grind against the society in which they are parasites!

Pat P

Sorry to hear that, Mirjam - what a rotten world we live in.

Pat P