OT - my life just to let you all know (LONG)

Heads up! It's likely to be both.... And your trips to the ER, and to the school to pick him up are likely to be frequent. Forget about looking for an outside job for the next dozen years, even if the younger ones are "fine" home alone. Be prepared to fight with the school district re: "placement" issues.... I have one of those... much like Cheryl's troublemaker. Mine turns 18 next month... he might need to find another place to live by the end of the year.

You need to find something he's INTERESTED in doing... then figure out how to do it cheaply and without stinting your other kids.... Karate lessons "worked" for mine for a few years-- at least it got him out of the house and wore him out a little. Helped with some motor skills problems, too.

Kaytee "Simplexities" on

vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from snipped-for-privacy@aol.comnospam (Kaytee) :

]Kids that do well in classrooms are rewarded with "GATE" status, and ]allowed self-paced independant study... kids that can't conform to classroom ]"society" are forced to stay in standard classrooms.

exactly. and it is something i have never been able to get Jamie to believe.

----------- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books)

's not what you take, when you leave this world behind you;it's what you leave behind you when you go. -- Randy Travis

Only if the kid is willing to accept the "time out". Likewise, "making" him/her clean up a mess, or do anything else for that matter, works only if the kid is willing to be cooperative. I've had holes punched into the walls-- "made" the puncher fix it and pay for the patching materials the first time... then, I fixed a few and made the perpetuator pay double, then triple the cost of materials... then for a dry-waller to replace a whole section of wall plus some big patching.... Why didn't I "make" them fix the mess each time?? In addition to it needing to be done over when they did, after the "first time" for #1 son, he said "Fuck NO!".... And, he didn't particularly care if he had to pay for the privilage of punching holes in the wall until losing both his birthday and Christmas money to pay for the new drywall. The hit to the pocketbook was enough to make #2 son think about things, but he still has a couple of doors to replace... after all, his brother "gets away with it", so why shouldn't he? Same thing for "time outs"... and duck tape doesn't work.... Kaytee "Simplexities" on

Could you elaborate on this, please.

I agree with the 'opposite philosophies', and I think that what you call internal self-control is one of the things we need, and often aren't taught in any of the contexts of our lives.

How did this happen in the Montessori setting?

Deirdre

My experience includes a fair number of well-funded schools which practiced "one size fits all" education. I am thinking more about the physical restrictions children tend to be under in the classroom rather than the curriculum. It leaves the highly kinetic kids in a bind. They can't sit still, and when they fail, they get labeled as 'behavior problems' and are disciplined for expressing their genuine nature.

I also suspect your local 'good public school' is more exceptional than you might think. But I am thrilled with all the stories you tell about it, and its existence gives me a bit of hope. I wish every district that could afford to would use some of its successes as a model for the direction in which to move.

Deirdre

Yes...

Deirdre

vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from snipped-for-privacy@aol.compuppies (Dr. Sooz) :

]Haw haw! Many, many times, starting when they were puppies. Of course, Merc's ]now 70+ pounds.....haven't needed to do it in a while. (Needless to say. He ]sees me as the alpha female.)

does it work with all breeds?

----------- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books)

's not what you take, when you leave this world behind you;it's what you leave behind you when you go. -- Randy Travis

vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from snipped-for-privacy@aol.compuppies (Dr. Sooz) :

]It can, but I don't recommend it. Most breeds don't need it. Huskies are so ]damn stubborn, and they just don't care what we say -- they need Wolf Language ]to straighten them out.

ah - that makes sense.

actually, i was thinking most 'herd dogs' fit that category.

----------- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books)

's not what you take, when you leave this world behind you;it's what you leave behind you when you go. -- Randy Travis

Just catching up. Thanks for reading this.

On Sat, 6 Sep 2003 12:38:19 -0400, Deirdre S. wrote (in message ):

The kids were taught to choose their own tasks for the day, define exactly how they planned to accomplish the task and then do the follow through. It sounds trivial, but it's a real challenge for the little guys.

They were also taught appropriate ways of dealing with feelings of anger or frustration, giving them at least a measure of self-control. I remember DD being very angry about something, and muttering to herself, "I have to use my words. They can't help me if I can't use my words."

The only thing they never could get across to my child was to nap. She would not nap. period. Not because she wasn't tired - she just didn't want to be told to nap. Even worse, she would keep other kids awake so she wouldn't be bored. Most days, DD and her friend would be banished to the vestibule (not as bad as it sounds) while the other kids napped, so the other kids would actually have a chance to nap.

Kathy N-V

vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from Kathy N-V :

]The only thing they never could get across to my child was to nap. She would ]not nap. period. Not because she wasn't tired - she just didn't want to be ]told to nap. Even worse, she would keep other kids awake so she wouldn't be ]bored.

exactly. after he was about eight months old, Johnny never took another nap, either. i think he was afraid he might miss something - because he did nothing BUT sleep for those first eight months. to the point we were worrying about him. turns out it was just because he was nine weeks early.

----------- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books)

's not what you take, when you leave this world behind you;it's what you leave behind you when you go. -- Randy Travis

On Sat, 6 Sep 2003 13:42:35 -0400, vj wrote (in message ):

We only used time outs for between ages three and four. Before that, her misbehaviors were largely my fault - like taking her grocery shopping when she was tired, and then being surprised when she had a meltdown. After she was old enough to understand, we talked everything through.

Mostly, we used logical consequences. You break it? Okay, you fix it. You think you want to throw food? Okay, then dinner's over, you obviously weren't hungry, and no snacks until the next meal. This method worked for us, because that's how real life works -- if I don't pay my power bill, I sit in the dark, etc. It also took us out of the position of the authority figures passing judgement down from above, and letting her see the results of her own actions. Her life was (mostly) under her control.

We gave lots of choices, and let her pick. All the outfits were on their own hangers, and she could pick her outfit for the day. She chose her own breakfast from a variety of foods in little baggies in the fridge (she ate in the car on the way to day care). She wasn't allowed to go outside the range of choices, mostly: she could pick a shower or a bath, but remaining dirty wasn't an option.

Little kids have so much of their lives under someone else's control that they spend a lot of time being totally frustrated. Letting her make as many choices as possible defused a lot of that feeling of frustration and also gave her a good foundation in decision making for when the choices got harder.

She was never given a choice in matters of health or safety: you stay in the car seat, or the car gets pulled over to the side of the road until you're ready to behave. If Dr. B says you take the medicine for ten days, you take it for ten days. (We used to make a chart with ten spaces on it, and mark it off together, so she'd know how many days she had left) After all, there are plenty of things that adults have to do just because, and doing those things isn't optional. We always made a point of saying that Mama's doctor made her take medicine too, and she had no choice; so DD wouldn't feel that she was being singled out.

She also had to "earn" things: when she wanted ruffle bum underwear, she had to prove that she was ready to give up diapers for real. (She was jsut over two years old) With that incentive, she potty-trained in a day, never had an accident, and a week later got a whole bunch of fancy-schmancy underwear. She could earn an extra half hour of TV time before bed by cooperating with her bath and pajama routine - we could spend the time relaxing, or we could spend the time fighting over bathing: her choice. (There was always a sacrosanct half hour of reading last thing at night. It calmed us all down and made a nice routine before lights out)

It's been so long since I actually thought about these things. This has been our style of parenting for so long that it's become totally automatic. Letting her earn her own money (by collecting all the Diet Coke cans around here for their deposits) naturally evolved into teaching her how to budget. (She saved $600 for her spending money for Germany this summer) Giving her choices of summertime activities let to her scheduling her own time: she picked camp, swimming lessons and drama class - I didn't. She makes her own appointment for the orthodontist, and walks there after school. I just pay the bills.

We have very few rules around this house in some ways - most everything boils down to "show some respect." Dissenting opinions are allowed and even encouraged, and as long as she has some logical argument why, we will often change our minds. If someone feels upset or hurt, they tell the other person and why they feel that way, and everyone apologizes to everyone else when they're wrong.

I don't know if this would work for everyone, but it's certainly worked for us. We all genuinely enjoy each other's company, the house runs more or less smoothly, and I think that we're giving DD (and P/T D) the tools they'll need to be successful adults.

My, this has gotten long! I'll get off my soapbox now.

Kathy N-V

On Sat, 6 Sep 2003 13:42:48 -0400, Dr. Sooz wrote (in message ):

Fortunately for me, I've long established who is Alpha Bitch in this house, because all the pups have grown much larger and stronger than me. :-)

I actually did something like that on a human scale, when DD was very small and was trying to slap me. I'd grab her hand before she made contact with me, grip her wrist firmly and growl, "Don't you EVER hit me! I don't hurt you, and you don't hurt me. Got it?"

Didn't take long before the pup got the idea.

Kathy N-V

vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from Kathy N-V :

]My, this has gotten long! I'll get off my soapbox now.

No - don't - please - ever!

i wish i'd had you around 30 years ago!

----------- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books)

's not what you take, when you leave this world behind you;it's what you leave behind you when you go. -- Randy Travis

vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from Kathy N-V :

]I actually did something like that on a human scale, when DD was very small

daddy always said, "you have to convince them you're GOD [insert authority figure of your choice - alpha bitch works!] BEFORE they are two - or you've already lost the battle. and it will tell when they are teenagers.

----------- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books)

's not what you take, when you leave this world behind you;it's what you leave behind you when you go. -- Randy Travis

Am I the only one who sees a strong positive correlation between parents who want to "protect" their kids from every little thing, and irresponsible kids? I've met so many parents who seem to be in a feedback loop -- they're so convinced that the kids can't handle responsibility that they never try to give them any... and lo and behold, the kids really *don't* handle responsibility very well. It seems like a real chicken-and-egg situation to me, and by the time the kid is a teenager it's *way* too late to fix.

Celine

Well, another update. Thanks Kathy, I made that playdough for them yesterday. And guess what? It wasn't near as messy as I figured it would be! It was four little blobs of different colors and now it's all one Let the kids play outside today. Figured out if I sat out by the road it would be OK. And you know what, it was. Seeing an adult *right there* seems to make all the cars slow down (sad but true) and of course I was the only grown up out there. Then one of the mom's came out to get her one kid so I got to talk to her for a few. I am SO antisocial. Seen her at the school a few times. Also talked to the neighbor lady across the street (who has a garage the kids play in AND a back yard!) As long as the kids listen, she's ok with them over there. It's the neighbors to her left that have the dog. There were also about 5 other kids there that I wasn't sure where they belonged but I guess that's not my problem. I'll try to take more time and get to the neighbors a little better. After all, we've only lived here two years! I'm a lot calmer today (actually got a halfway decent nap in which helped) (and the weather's cooler which helps even more) Even got my kitchen swamped out (swept, mopped, etc) Still need to do the dishes (of couse)(I think I'd kill for a dishwasher even though I have no idea where I'd put it) but the chicken for dinner is in the oven. Just got to get some pans washed so I can do the potatoes (or should I do stuffing?) veggies and probably gravy. Glad I know how to cook even though 99c burgers are really tempting!

Thanks for letting me rant and rave and vent. It helped a lot!

Later,

Helen C

BTW, Ron's healing good. Redness is going down and he's actually taking his antibiotics. He's got about a 1/2 dozen more appointments to go to but at least it's not all that bad. And it hasn't hampered his mobility one bit (he's still sneaking outside just not AS much)

vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from "Helen C" :

]Thanks for letting me rant and rave and vent. It helped a lot!

**grin** GOOD for you! you're making a good start!

and we're here.

----------- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books)

's not what you take, when you leave this world behind you;it's what you leave behind you when you go. -- Randy Travis

On Sat, 6 Sep 2003 20:33:08 -0400, Lee S. Billings wrote (in message ):

Oh God, it's a constant struggle. I always wanted to protest DD against all the scuffs and scrapes of real life. But I've always known it cannot work that way, and sometimes they have to learn by falling down.

I worry about the kids who never got a chance to screw up while they were young and the stakes are small. For example, if DD decides to spend her lunch money on gum on the way to school, she goes hungry for an afternoon. If she's an adult, and spends her food money on beer on Friday, she could get a DWI, may endanger her life, and won't have food money until next payday. I'd rather have her learn the lesson while she still has us as a safety net.

I saw an awful lot of that during freshman year in college. The second those kids got out from the parental thumb, they ran wild. I had been working, paying bills and functioning as an adult for years, and although I was probably pretty dull, I didn't have that horrid second semester crash that hit so many of them.

But time will tell if my parenting methods are any good in the long run. It's worked out thus far, but how successful she'll be as an adult is anyone's guess. I'm also not sure how important my input might be. I am not what you would normally expect for a person raised as I was: I am not an authoritarian parent, I believe all family members have rights, and I don't believe in corporal punishment. (My parents had the exact opposite viewpoint) Sadly, by the time you think you have it all figured out, the kids are grown up. I keep telling myself that as long as she knows we were always guided by our love for her, it'll be all right.

Kathy N-V