On Sun, 7 Sep 2003 0:02:15 -0400, Kaytee wrote (in message ):
Wow, poor you! I sincerely don't know what I would have done with a child like that. Probably serving prison time by now, I'm sure.
I hope I didn't come down as if I were the expert from on high. I'm not. Just muddling through like the rest. It works for us, maybe just because it does and through no special effort on our part.
I have to admit that the "Fuck you, Bitch" would have been met by a backhand across the mouth at somewhere near the speed of light. I don't normally hit people, but the shock of that would have probably proven to be more than I could handle.
Geez Kaytee, I hope things are getting better or these issues are all gone by now.
This is the thing a lot of folks seem to forget is important when it comes to creating an environment in which kids can grow in healthy ways. A lot of parents act as thought they never want their kids to
-forget- that they are the authority figures, and they are bigger than their kids, and that makes them more powerful -- in both physical strength and in their control of the resources kids need to survive.
So instead of learning about natural consequences, they learn about power and force. Which means that the are on the alert for -rewards and punishments- rather than the answer to the question "What actually
-happens- when I do this?"
But that 'what happens' question is a guide that doesn't fail you. Authority figures' rules, and their rewards and punishments for following or breaking them, can be arbitrary and irrational. But consequences are how we learn what actually works, and what doesn't.
Helen - I'd like to suggest reading and posting at the boards on parentsplace.com. And continue talking here. It sounds like talking (writing) about what's going on and getting adivce from seasoned parents is helping you a lot. Parentsplace.com and sites like it are really helpful that way. There are tons of message boards with different topics all about parenting. Lots of hobby ideas and money saving tips, too.
Link:
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are a lot of ads, but if you get the Google toolbar latest edition, itcomes with a popup stopper, and that helps a lot. Link for that:
No. You have to want to have social acceptance for most of these strategies to work. If you honestly don't have a desire for that, it doesn't.
And it sure sounds like he fit the latter description. I can see why those options, that would work with most people, didn't work with him. Don't know what -would- work, though. I just have a lot of sympathy for you, since you gave so many things that looked as if they -ought- to work a good shot.
That doesn't work, either.... And leaves tooth marks on the back of your hand as well.
No-- you don't sound like a "know it all better" type. And your daughter sounds like an exceptional kid, anyway. Your advice/method IS what is reccomended for MOST kids-- and works well with most. It worked pretty good with #2 son, and similar methods worked pretty good when I was "Mama2" to 5 of my siblings (and when it didn't, a quick swat or a soapy toothbrush worked wonders), so I'm pretty sure it's not "just me", either. In any case, documented and degreed professionals didn't have much "workable" advice, either. They'd rattle off a list of stuff I "should" be doing (as if these were magic, guaranteed to work practices and I was too stupid to know about them), then get huffy when I said (essentially): "been there, tried that, it didn't work, so what now?" And worse were the ones that seemed to imply I was a negligent mother because I wasn't giving him 110% of my attention 200% of the time-- like, "What? You can't help him do his 3 to 4 hours worth of busy work every night? But mothers are supposed to help their children... good mothers are interested in what their kids are doing... good mothers like their kids to suceed... just set him up in the same room as you if you have to make dinner or something... How hard can that be? He's soooo cute...." .
Well... he's about a month from his 18th b'day. After that, he can straighten up or move out if he isn't willing to follow the rules. And, Daddy is ready to box up his stuff and set it out on the sidewalk, change all the locks, and even help me move all my bead stuff into what is currently his bedroom.... Kaytee "Simplexities" on
It started before age 3-- probably started when he was still a fetus... After the morning sickness was about over, he started punching, kicking and head butting me all the way up to delivery, then evidently decided he liked it in there after all, and it required a C-section to get him out. He let the world know he was mad about getting dragged out, too. Literally pissed all over everybody involved in the forced eviction. However, age 3 was when he was verbally competent enough to express himself in words.... Daddy (5'11" and 195#) tells #1 son (about 3' and maybe 30#) to pick up his toys and get ready for dinner. The rug rat stomps, puffs himself up, shakes a finger at Daddy, yelling "Don't you tell me what to do!!!". Then there were the "Spit that out!" parental commands-- so of course he swallowed the dime... and bit down on a whole lump of wasabi... and the chili from the Szechuan stir fry.... (all separate incidences). And the "unheard" commands to "Wait for Mommy/Daddy"-- followed by wrenched shoulders, skinned knees and bumps and bruises when he didn't wait.... His medical record was about an inch thick with ER reports before he got into preschool...
That's the professional opinion of several dr's who have worked with him....
Unfortunately, some of the "natural consequences" of finding out "What actually
-happens- when I do this?" would mean a dead or severely injured kid, and/or his (rarely "her") buddies, pets, and other by-standers. Maybe not for "normal" kids, who can "get" the verbal explanation, but there are those "other kids" who can't "see" cause and effect without experiencing it, and even when they do, can't believe it will happen again the NEXT time they do whatever.. until they ARE "tested to destruction".... These kids have an unshakable faith in their immortality and invulnerability... and when they do get hurt (non-lethally), it's somebody elses fault. Kaytee "Simplexities" on
On Mon, 8 Sep 2003 22:21:19 -0400, Kaytee wrote (in message ):
I remember doing an object lesson on the danger of cars by pointing out squished squirrels by the side of the road. Then we took an orange, put it in the middle of the street and watched.
DD was about three, but she got the message.
She's not one to get verbal messages, either. But unlike most boys with ADHD, she doesn't have the thrill-seeking, adrenilene rush kind of personality.
I see you've met my brother. I am constantly amazed by the fact that he's still alive.
vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from Kathy N-V :
]These kids have an unshakable faith in ]> their immortality and invulnerability... and when they do get hurt ]> (non-lethally), it's somebody elses fault. ] ]I see you've met my brother. I am constantly amazed by the fact that he's ]still alive.
and they must be related somehow to Johnny. although, to give him credit, he has never, ever, blamed anyone else. once is usually all it takes. but he always has to try it that first time. **sigh**
----------- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books)
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's not what you take, when you leave this world behind you;it's what you leave behind you when you go. -- Randy Travis
I realize the excellent advise here is applicable only to "normal" kids. It sounds like your son is on the boarderline of normal. Don't you hate it when people give you advise that you've already tried and failed at? My son has some extreme personality characteristics that make him very hard to get along with. He's an adult now, and he works with his problems, but he's still difficult. Though not as difficult as your son. All we can do is love them. Often with tough love.
All we can >do is love them. Often with tough love.
I don't mind it when it's given by those who are truely trying to help. Even if I've heard the same thing countless times, and have tried it multiple times. After all, it's usually because they don't know what I've tried.... I do get tired of explaining that "yes, I have tried that, it didn't work"... just am tired PERIOD... and have spent so much time/energy just barely maintaining #1 son, that #2 son has really been shorted of the "quality time" he deserves. He can't wait for his brother to get kicked out...
It's the supposed "pros" that give textbook advice in a condescending manner that "bug" me. Ones with no experience outside their textbooks and "case studies" of short duration they got in their internship. Ones that imply it's MY fault because I'm not trying hard enough, that I'm a negligent parent. Ones that assume I don't know anything... that after living with the problem for YEARS, I still have the problem because I am too stupid to do anything effective about it... that I am "too weak"... not firm enough/decisive enough... not consistant... that I am not willing to listen to "good advice". Then there are the beaurocrats who won't listen to anybody outside their little empire, and generally disregard input from those who are "peasants" within their empire.... The only ones that are worse are the ones who tell me I have the problem because I failed to beat him severely enough when he first started causing trouble-- that if I had given him a good clout THEN, he wouldn't be doing whatever now. They don't believe me when I tell them that a swat hardly got him to pay attention, and anything more just got him mad and more out of control. Besides, if I was to beat him when he first started causing trouble, I would have had to punch myself in the belly.... Kaytee "Simplexities" on
I do understand that someone who is not really -connecting- to the consequences is not going to learn this way. In effect, if you can't learn for yourself, you probably need to live in a permanently custodial environment. I am profoundly sympathetic with people who can't learn adaptive strategies to make their lives work. I have even profounder sympathies with the people who feel responsible for trying to keep such folks from self-destructing, or harming others.
It's true! I am always so disturbed when I see a parent of a toddler saying, in that sicky-sweet helpless voice, "Is it OK if we put that down/leave/eat/whatever now? Can you listen to Mommy? OK? Please?" They are (IMO) raising their child to be a monster. It is vital that you afford a child the respect due any human being, but some things are not negotiable, and some children are not capable of negotiation. For example, my daughter is five, and she has learned to negotiate. She knows that if we compromise, she must hold up her end of the bargain, and I will hold up mine. However, at 18 months, that was not possible, so I would politely inform her of my requirements, and if she did not acquiesce, I picked her up and she lost the dignity of doing it herself. Children DO NOT LIKE being deprived of their dignity, and they learn very fast that cooperating is the most palatable way to respond to Mommy's requests. I have also explained to my children that "OK guys, are you ready to go?" is a polite way of saying "get ready to go now", and that "will you please pick your shoes up and put them in your room" is a polite way of telling them to go do it... not a real question, just a way of stating my requirement that allows them to maintain dignity by cooperating.
There are plenty of kids this doesn't work on, but outright letting your kid push you around from a very early age, which I see some parents doing, is a surefire way to raise a nightmare kid.
The "fighting over bathing" made me chuckle because I was totally anti-bathing when I was a kid... my mom and I used to get in horrendous fights. Eventually she gave up, and let me learn the hard way why bathing is important (a story I'll spare you). With my kids, I have them completely brainwashed to think of baths as play time... so far. I did this by simply refusing to let them have baths about 50% of the times they ask. No reason... I just won't let them have one. This makes them think, when I do let them have a bath, that it's some kind of fantastic treat. *I* think it is, too, because it usually gives me about an hour of reading time.
So, they bathe every other day... so far, so good.
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