I didn't attack you, I asked you for clarification, which I notice you decline to provide. I didn't ask about your family members' experiences, I asked about yours. If you are going to argue that Nicole doesn't know what it's like but you do, I think you should be willing to provide details when asked.
Elizabeth
Just as you are not ready either...
I don't attack your opinions, I attack your untruths. You lie about what is being taught in our schools. I will not accept that.
No, you just attack my opinions, you education, my nationality, which of course is something completely different.
cu nicole
I`m sure you`re right. Nicole, but I imagine that exactly the same thing was being said in 1939!
Pat P
Nicole , I read your words with great attention ,
And as i said Discussions between Jews and Germans are never easy. When The German side of such a discussion strats with saying words like Victim personality and Get some therapy , i can assume that this German has a long way to go. I didn`t call you victimizer , nore anyother name , i just said that your reactions , answers and facts , show me , you still have a lot to learn about your Country`s History. If you can`t react in a more mature way, than it would be hard to have any discussion at all , Assuming you want a discussion.
I am sorry , Nicole, I am not in the habit of telling lies , or speak about things i don`t know. You quote Wrong information about your History , thus either you don`t know it or you don` t want to know it.
Either you don`t know what you say here , or don`t want to know . I repaetedly speak about Nazi Germany `s doing , i don`t attack you i am sorry you don`t know enough . mirjam
This german has gone a long way, but thanks for asking, all the same.
As do you, quite obviously.
I agree. You need to think about what you write before you do because you are telling lies, and just because I'm calling you on that doesn#t make me an immature person.
You did not know about the Weisse Rose. I did. I was taught in school. You wrote: "now why doesn`t this surprise me ???? Only i suspect that you were taught more about the few who opposed than about the many who either supported him or silently went on with their lives. " (Msg ID: )
And this is not true. I know this because I was there. You were not. Please, you told an untruth about something you don't know anything about.
I did not quote wrong information (please cite me and tell us the Msg ID, it's in the full header of the post, I assume you know how to make the full Header appear).
Ok, so now I'm stupid and immature. But you of course are still not judging me, right?
cu nicole
Nope, but that's a convenient ad hominem, isn't it?
Nicole never said she had experienced having a gun to her head, she used it as a figure of speech (surely you know what that is), so I didn't need to ask her for details. You said you had, so I was curious. I'm so sorry that I may not have read or may not have remembered that you shared it with us here once before.
Elizabeth
Give it up, Nicole. Mirjam makes claims about things about which she knows nothing all the time and she'll only run you in circles. It can be amusing for a while, but then it will feel good to stop banging your head against the wall.
Elizabeth
And of course You Elizabeth , being non German , nore Jewish , know, understand and have an opinion about the complexity of a meeting between the two. Not only that Nicole , Elizabeth even claims that she knows what my mudererd family thinks about my activities. mirjam
Had you said i was mistaken i could take your words more seriously, once you start calling me liar , and other names it tells me you aren`t in a discussing mood . But i am still trying to find some common thread of understanding . Because it isn`t easy, even if for different reasons, to both of us.
Let`s agree , we both have to learn more about your country`s history, I am reading these days a book called "The Pity of It All" By Amos Elon , A History of Jews In Germany 1743-1933. As well as "Max und Moritz" Bubengeschiste in sieben streichen von Wilhelm Busch , 62 auflage , Munchen. [a very old book].
What Books do you read this days?or have you read lately about your country. [ i read other books as well, related to ther subjects.].
As i wrote above, calling other mature people liars , doesn`t make a very good discussion.
As i stated above, A meeting/discussion about What happened in Germany During WW2 between a German and a Jew is never easy. The fact that you demanded in one of your first leters that i should have more Empathy for the plight of the Germans, while you are tottaly lacking minimal [even just for politeness] empathy to the Jewish side, makes it clear to the direction of what you were taught. >>
If you think that you can enlighten me about something that you assume i don`t know , why don`t you tell me about it , instead of insulting me ?
Where were you and When ? I asked you to tell me the name of your grandprents Village , so that i can search and record the story of those 2 saved families, helped by your grandpraents .
I think you are doing a nice work of judging yourself . We al learn with time and patience ... mirjam
See, now I can do what you do:
But Mirjam, I'm not critizizing you as a person, I have not called you a liar anywhere, I merely said that you told falsehoods.
I agree. I don't take so well to being called stupid and immature of course not because you said I was but because you suggested I might be on a totally non personal level.
I have read many books, I'm sure you have better things to do than read about the last 50 books I have had on my nightstand.
See, I never did that, just like you never called my teachers liars.
No, I don't lack empathy to the Jewish side, I lack empathy toward people who resort to calling me things I am not very early in the discussion. That's a totally different thing.
I did tell you about it, you had to go and "verify" what I said before believing me, of course I'm not to do the same, because that's showing I mistrust you.
It's none of your busines. I will not give out private information like my adress on a public forum anyone can read. I am not too fond of midnight visits from strangers. I'm sure you feel the same, or would you care to give me your street adress, and that of all your relatives? (This is a rethorical question, please don't embaras us any further by answering it.)
No, I just cite you. It's quite easy when you don't snip half the relevant post.
cu nicole
How do you know that I am not German, Mirjam? In fact, I am of mixed German and Irish descent.
Anyway, I was not commenting on the complexity of a meeting between a German and a Jew, I was commenting on the complexity of anyone having a rational discussion with you. For example, you called Nicole immature and a liar, but are furious because she pointed out that you have made statements that are untrue. In other words, you wish to be treated much better than you are willing to treat others. Instead of discussing things with her, you are engaged in a game of one-upmanship, trying to tell her that she couldn't possibly know as much as you about the subject of what is taught in German schools when she actually went through the system and you didn't. Of course, this is typical of your interactions on this forum, as can be seen by your response to me quoted above.
I also find it interesting that you have modified one of your statements (German schools don't teach the truth about German history) so that it is now true (German schools have not always at all time periods taught the truth about German history). In other words, you are not careful in your writing, but are then upset when people call you on that lack of care.
And here, you are simply lying. We've been through this before and that's not what I said. Shall I track the quote down for you yet again?
Elizabeth
Hummm???? Isn`t there a Godwin in Monica`s Mysteries as well ??? mirjam
Oh yes - I forgot him - but I don`t think he`s the father of ANYTHING, let alone the Father of England! LOL!
Pat P
"MizKrysti" wrote
This was, however, not an Nazi analogy, so Godwin's Law doesn't apply. No one was compared to Hitler; the actual history of Hitler's rise and the response of German citizenry was put forward as germane to the argument. Dawne
No one particular person was compared to Hitler,true. However, the way I interpret Godwin applies to the deterioration of this thread into 'what the Germans did/didn't do under the Nazi regime', and the earlier references to Hitler being so intellectually/psychologically challenged that he was not the sole mastermind of The Holocaust - which almost sounds like a defense of what occured in Germany at that time in history. Going from London police shooting a suspected bomber (no matter that he was not attached to a bomb)to an argument about who was or was not reponsible for events in Germany 60-70 years ago, over the course of this thread opens the door to Godwin *In My Opinion* - flawed tho it may be! It should also be noted that Godwin, as with other "laws" is full of loopholes, codiciles, and corolaries which allow for all sorts of interpretations and further arguments. My whole point in posting Godwin
- which I also believe to be a slightly tongue-in-cheek reminder that when an arguement deteriorated so badly that the only recourse is to bring up any Hitler/Nazi - was to get the participants, or at least one of them, to move on. I generally enjoy the OT posts which are triggered by national and international events. As a American, I find it very enlightening to see how others respond to world events.
No argument there--I used to be a lawyer, and laws that say what they mean and mean what they say are no fun at allj!!
My whole point in posting Godwin
Well, good luck with that one. I don't know whether I admire your bravery or your optimism more!! Dawne
And of course, if they were quite clear, we wouldn't need lawyers lol
Nudge, nudge lol
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