OT: Innocent?

Dr Brat ,,,,,Elizabeth As always you are reading my posts with a Bad eye. i never wrote that Nicole was a liar , she called me a liar ,i said that we know and it was confirmed many times that, for many years German Kids weren`t Fully told what really happened.[I can even tell you that in East Germany they were taught more than in West Germany ] You have read my posts long enough to know i rarely use that term..about people.

I don`t really care what Origin you are from , and i think that it was Reasonable/ right to point out to Nicole that a discussion between her and me is problematic, and that only open discussions can help. . Even We who research and read Original Documents are Learning more [gahstly] facts , with each paper we read. Believe me, it is not easy to do such research. But it is requested , so that it won`t be forgotten, and hopefully never happen again.

As always you jump on my words, Because you can`t understand or rather won`t understand, That i have a right to my feelings, which obviously are Different than yours. Secondly you have no regard to the fact that i do research in this subject, and know a bit more than you care to know, But my researched and well documented knowledge, disturbs you. You can Write or say what you want, it doesn`t change any fact i know , nore will it make me feel different about the importance or validity, of my research. .

It always surprises me that you as an Academic are so blind to understand other people`s point of view, nore have respect to other people`s researches and findings. Or let`s correct it have a `selective` respect for Other researches. I first thought, [and in fact wrote but deleted], some facts about the change in knowledege due to reading documents in regards to the Dutch Jewery`plight. But i am not sure you are interested. Maybe what you call Complexity of having a rational discussion , is your inability [ i hope and try not to believe it is unwillingness] to accept, that people like me who have long researched, and weren`t afraid of the ` Propaganda ` of interested parties, nore of looking very hard facts in the face, and deal with them.[ and have a personal experience of sorts.] Might, learn to know facts that are different from what you WANT to believe. Maybe you have a cultural problem , to understand us. You agree with me that a meeting between a German and a Jew is complex. Probably it hasn`t occured to you that a meeting between a Christian and a Jew also has it`s complexities.

yes i said her reactions were immature , but i NEVER called her a liar.

I wasn`t furious, i pointed out that she made a mistaken statement.

See , who talks , isn`t this your regular mode of behaviour? i think i keep trying to be polite to you, while you are the first to jump on my posts ,,,, see the post about the woman with the Xst tablecloths,,,,, you just couldn`t resist another possibility to show a supposedly fault of mine.

that is tottaly your Interpretation......she keeps dragging all kinds of unrelated comments ....while accusing me of things i never said

I have not modified my statement since i never changed the facts i know/ since i am not in any courst i talk/write and may say the same facts in a variety of words and expressions, One of the reasons i never have to look in the archives , is just this i say What i know, since i have need to change my information , why should i worry about the exact wording. i can decribe a bush one day by it`s Latin name and opne day by it`s Common name , it will still be the same bush. i am extremly careful about what i say and how i say ,,, one benefit of English not being my First language, is just that extra moment one has to think about a pharse . Does It convey exactly what the Original term says??

At the time i have forwarded to many of my colleagues , who were Horrified. And last year i told about it in the to researchers in the International conference, in Holland. You have hurt me very badly, and i still think was an uncalled for cruel and stupid remark. You can Quote or misquote or pick up what ever you want , i was so annoyedby it that i just deleted it ,,, but every time you jump and try to portray me unkindly , i remember ,,,, mirjam

Reply to
Mirjam Bruck-Cohen
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A convenient claim, Mirjam. How should I read your posts?

This is simply false Mirjam. In East Germany, they were taught far LESS than in West Germany. I defy you to find any valid scholar who claims otherwise and cite that person here in a form that can be verified.

You have read my

You've used it about me, many a time. In fact you've used it about me within the last few weeks.

I don't jump on your words, I simply disagree with you and I have a right to do so, just as you have a right to your feelings.

I really don't care whether you research or not. It makes no difference to me. I don't usually ask people for their research on matters of opinion. It is only when people state as fact things I know to be untrue that I ask for their sources, so that I can see where they got their ideas or correct my own.

As an academic, Mirjam, I understand that having done research does not always make ones conclusions correct. You still don't seem to have grasped that concept.

What ARE you talking about? You have completely lost me here, Mirjam. You claim that I am incapable of understanding a discussion between a German and a Jew and now you claim that I don't want to, without ever providing any evidence that I don't. We're not talking about Dutch Jewery and we're not talking about propaganda. We were talking about whether it is possible to have a discussion with you without you calling someone a liar. It is my experience that it is not possible and no book in Dutch (which I don't read easily) is going to change my mind about that. You could change my mind by trying to be more reasonable in your discussions, but I won't hold my breath.

I wouldn't know. I'm not a Christian. And since you're the only Jew or Israeli that I've ever had this kind of difficulty with, I prefer not to generalize.

No, it's true, you never came out and called Nicole a liar, that I can see. But you did imply it at least once.

See, and I wasn't jumping on you. Isn't that better?

No, Mirjam, it's not. I'm generally very polite to people. I am occasionally brusque in my posts, but I am not the only one with that characteristic and I try to be understanding when others are.

Mirjam, you are rarely polite to me, unless repeatedly calling someone a liar and an anti-semite falls within your definition of polite.

And why is it that other people "respond" but I "jump?" How could you possibly know what I am doing when I respond to you? At least I have never put your name in the subject header of a post, nor called you to task for not sending me condolences.

And I am entitled to my interpretation, yes?

In this case, Mirjam, you are mistaken. You did indeed change your claims about the teaching of Holocaust history in German schools. And in changing your wording, changed your claim.

You may think it was stupid and uncalled for, but at the time, I was very angry and just as you are entitled to express your feelings, I am entitled to express mine. I still stand by that statement, as I made it, not as you claim I made it.

But you obviously deleted it without reading it, since you misquote it every time you remember it. I never claimed to know what your dead ancestors think. I never claimed that they were ashamed of you. I said that I felt shame for you. There's a difference. And every time you repeat that I claimed to know what your ancestors are thinking, you are telling a lie.

Elizabeth

Reply to
Dr. Brat

Ok. At this point I shall killfile you. It's just come to a point where I'm no longer able to "discuss" things with you. I don't want to read your accusations anymore. You keep trying to make me say something stupid and I'm just tired of keeping my guard up, of looking up words in my dictionary just to make sure I'm not using a word wrong and being accused of things I didn't mean to say. It's not worth my time. You twist my words every way you can and try to get your point across that all germans are still evil and that you are some kind of angelic creature that had to suffer for centuries. I'm sorry you feel this way but there's nothing I'm willing to do for you anymore.

cu nicole

Reply to
NL

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Reply to
Dianne Lewandowski

Reply to
Mirjam Bruck-Cohen

Good.

I will agree to A if you will tell me how you got there, but you never will. Instead, you go off on a tangent about how I just don't understand and I always critize you. And in this last round, it was you who corrected me to begin with, not the other way around, please remember. You didn't like my reaction to the death of a possibly innocent man.

Good, then be sure not to put my name in any more subject headers, will you?

Ok.

Ah, you can't just agree to disagree, can you, Mirjam? You have to sign off with this load of dreck. I have said I don't trust you and I have asked you to stop sending me email and snail mail, but I don't think I have ever unloaded this kind of personal invective on you. So there you go, Mirjam. You are better at being nasty than I am. There's a victory for you.

Elizabeth

Reply to
Dr. Brat

"Dawne Peterson" , blest us all with:

snip #From: "MizKrysti" #Message-ID: #MizKrysti said in another thread:

snip

I agree, totallyj In this case however the OP has it all cocked up. There is no 'grey area' for a UseNET Godwin. Posting a Godwin is more of a shorthand type gavel thump to a response that is diversionary. The benchmark of "mentioning Nazi" is simply indicative of the

*type of response* that warrants a Godwin being announced. Do not take my word for it,, go check the soc.culture groups or any of the more vitriolic file swap (binary) groups. FWIW,, Godwins have lost popularity,, the new enlightened X Gen prefers simple language. Today,, GAGF is their 'Godwin'

jLs

Reply to
jLb

What is a GAGF ???

please mirjam

Reply to
Mirjam Bruck-Cohen

So you are saying that someone might have posted "godwin" as a kind of shorthand to say the argument had been diverted??. In classical logic, there are similar terms for logical fallacies--red herring, straw man argument, and several others which indicate that something has been introduced that takes the argument away from its logical development. What you say about plain language being used is encouraging--there is little point in telling someone they have screwed up without letting them know how. Dawne

Reply to
Dawne Peterson

Don`t ask, Mirjam - you really don`t want to know!!! I think it should have a Y at the end. LOL!

Pat P

Reply to
Pat P

snipped-for-privacy@actcom.co.il (Mirjam Bruck-Cohen), blest us all with:

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may not want to know Mirjam :->It is an Aussie cultural language thing and not half as bad as it sounds.Often used as an expression of saying "No thanks" ,,amongst good friends. Yep..we is a weird bunch awl-roight!

Then again,, IF in Sydney,, I would not say GAG to the Pizza Boy when he asked for his money!!

jLs

Reply to
jLb

"Dawne Peterson" , blest us all with:

..exactly :-) AnD.. In circumstance it [diversion] is a strategy often employed when the response clearly punches big holes in the arguments put. I am of the belief the strategy is taught in one societys debating schools as it is just too common an occurrence to be coincidence. Does WOMD turning into "forced democracy" ring any bells?

Someone should have yelled "Godwin" at Dubbya...long ago!

..and again, exactly. Problem you have in doing so is that [often] "auto mode" of the receiver is on 'Lock". The default options available in that brainspace are: a. ignore [or] b. delve into deeper convoluted reasoning - oxymoron alert. Hence, "letting them know how", is a complete waste of effort on your [well intentioned] part.

It is refreshing when you do discover a reasoned response is not only listened to..but accepted :-)

..now who is going to yell "Godwin" on this post?

jLs

Reply to
jLb

Reply to
Mirjam Bruck-Cohen

It`s not really anyone`s BUSINESS to yell "Godwin" or anything else, is it? If you`re fed up with it, just kill the thread! Simple! ;-P

Pat P

Reply to
Pat P

"Pat P" , blest us all with:

IF that is a question Pat then the answer is, Yes , it is. Thats How Usenet works.

..and ?

I would explain further,, usually, however you have used all your tokens up so this is all you get,, as attention. Be happy you got that as you are on *Mark Read* from your last adventure into silliness.

jLb

Reply to
jLb

Where the devil did you spring for to barge in here from nowhere and start trying to run things? And just who are you to talk about silliness? You flew off half-cocked and I can tell you now, that a lot of folk put you down as a troll and a humourless one, at that.

I usually killfile trolls, but gave you a chance hoping you might prove to be older and wiser than your apparent 12 years. A mistake that`s easily rectified.

Pat P

>
Reply to
Pat P

I was wondering the same thing - flew in with a bird brain I would say. Like a seagull, if he's not sqawking he's s*****ng.

Perhaps he will tell us more about the needlework he does and stay on subject a bit.

Reply to
Lucretia Borgia

Nothing changes much in your world Pat. I was not aware anyone was "trying to run things". Have you made a new rule? You most certainly do not like the Bird Boy having a say. I find the comment refreshing for a change of pace and thought

sally

Reply to
Sally Sindells

Oh Please Lucrette! YOU cite "on subject" Come on! The whole kitchen cupboard is rattling in disbelief! Given the harpish and completely unwarranted response yourself and Pat have mailed I would say the Bird Boy does excellent needlework

sally

Reply to
Sally Sindells

I just didn`t appreciate his previous hysterical and practically incoherent attack from someone who, like yourself on an earlier occasion, leapt in from nowhere to criticise and, in fact, I`m surprised you still deign to mix with people who might let slip the odd profanity! LOL!

I`m certainly not trying to make a rule, and don`t expect a newcomer to attempt to do so, either.

Is it a man? Not that it matters.

I`m assuming that you are Sally Swindells and not Sindells as it appears on this post.

Pat P

Reply to
Pat P

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